First Sergeant Diamond...?

[EMT-83]

1. The first sergeant diamond is not authorized. It was removed from the latest version of CAPR 52-16. There is no conflict in the regs - it's not there.
2. It is not in CAPM 39-1 or any of the ICLs related to it. If National meant to authorize it, they would have added it somewhere along the line. They've had enough opportunities.
3. It's really not a big enough issue to get into a urination contest over.

According to the Knowledgebase, the First Sergeant Diamond is authorized. That's the conflict I was referring to. I would agree that the KB is not regulatory, and the actual regulations should be followed.

[arajca]

The Knowledgebase also says they meant to include it, however, they've had ample opportunities to include it somewhere along the line. We've had a dozen or so ICLs regarding uniforms, plus it was removed from the latest version of CAPR 52-16. Both which indicate (to me at least) they did NOT mean for it to be authorized.

[coloncapfl]

First on this subject I see a lot of peoples perspective and not a definate answer. Question, Doesn't National sends a change when an item gets Phase out and what is whe Phase out date? Has there ever being one for that item? Second the 1st Sgt diamont is not an achievemnt grade but rather a position grade, just as the military has the 1st, Sgt Major and Cmd Sgt Major. Those are the same pay grade but just have different duties. I believe that until there i an official document stating that the diamont has been phase out, then there is no definate authority to say that has been officially out, specially when the position is still reflected (although vague) in some regs. the 1st Sgt position responsibility is shown on the pamphet but not on the regs. I beliebve because is an optional position. When I was a cadet my squadron was 60 and at a time was 150 cadets and we always had 1st sgts. I just honestly believe I e no harm in letting a cadet wear the diamond.

That is my humble opinion.

[lordmonar]

If national was doing their job.....and updating the regulations in a timely manner and making changes as they see errors....this would not be a problem.

39-1 is mute on the subject  52-16 used to authorise it and is now mute on the subject.  KB authorises them. 

Bottom line is that the world is not going to end one way or the other.....if in doubt ask your chain of command.

[Private Investigator]

Well my opinion really does not count because we have Regulations.

BUT the First Sergeant Diamond is really cool and Cadets like to be called FIRST SERGEANT   

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

How is it wearing the First Sergeant diamond different than wearing the NRA badge?

In both cases, some regulation says it is authorized.

In both cases, Knowledge Base says they are authorized.

So how come that in one case, you appear to support the commander's decission to wear one to the exclusion of the other.

Flyer

[Pylon]

In both cases, some regulation says it is authorized.

In both cases, Knowledge Base says they are authorized.

Wrong assumptions here on both parts.  Here's the reality of that summary:

Regulations & Manuals: 
First Sergeant Diamond:  None mention the first sergeant diamond.  CAPM 39-1 however does state in Section 1 that it is exclusionary in nature and that anything not specifically authorized in 39-1 for wear is completely forbidden for wear throughout CAP.
NRA Badge:  A specifically named NRA badge tied to a specific program is authorized in CAPM 39-1.  That NRA program in its entirety no longer exists.  The NRA badges being issued today are different badges.  They are not specifically mentioned by badge name, program name, or any other form of equivalency provision.  If we can take an authorization for a specific, defined, named badge and then just wear a similar one at our own discretion, I guess I can wear Naval Observer Wings instead of CAP Observer Wings if Vanguard runs out of them or if CAP eliminates the observer rating.  Close enough, right?

Knowledgebase:  In both cases, the Knowledgebase can say whatever it wants yet it doesn't impact this discussion.  There is no provision in any CAP regulation anywhere that says: "Do X, Y, and Z, but if you read a CAP Knowledgebase entry that says otherwise, disregard this regulation at your own pleasure."   CAP Knowledgebase is maintained by NHQ paid staff members; staff members do not have the authority to change any regulations.  Those powers are now reserved to the National Commander/CEO and the BoG.   It's pretty easy for NHQ to issue a change letter.  They've issued nearly a dozen on the uniform manual alone in recent years, and many of those had a laundry list of changes.  The Knowledgebase has been saying "they forgot" the diamond for YEARS.  At least 6 ICL's to CAPM 39-1 have come out since then (if not more) and yet not a single one of them addressed it.  Therefore the assertion by a staff member that the National Commander (or previously the NB) "forgot to authorize the diamond" seems much more dubious; if those authorized to do so wanted to authorize the diamond, it sure is suspicious that they've had a dozen opportunities to do so and chose not to.

and for good measure:
Vanguard: Just because Vanguard (a for-profit corporation) sells something on its website doesn't mean its authorized for CAP uniform wear.  They sell polished metal grade insignia under the Senior Member grade insignia category.  That doesn't mean its authorized for wear by any SM, at any time, in any CAP uniform.  Because its not.

[arajca]

flyer333555, what reg authorizes the first sergeant diamond? The position is in CAPR 20-1 and 52-16, but the diamond is not. The knowledge base is not regulatory and does not trump the regs.

CAPM 39-1 does include positional devices such as the commander's badge and NEC (now CSAG - see ICL) badge. It does not include the first sergeant diamond.

Phase out periods are to spread the replacement cost out. Since there is no replacement for the first sergeant diamond and the cadets should already have the standard grade insignia, a phase out period is not warranted.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ok, you are correct. I missed it in that the diamond is not allowed in any regulation. But it seems that KB is saying "it can be worn." Like the NRA badge.

But when I take the position about upholding the regulation despite what the squadron commander says, every message I read here says "you are wrong."

And when I take the position of making local policy following what the commander wants, everyone here says "you are wrong."

Reread Eclipse's messages. I cannot do anything right!

Despite 12 years in CAP, and being Personnel and Admin in about 10 of those years, and Deputy Commandert of two different squadrons for about 4 of those years.

When will I be right?

I am not trying to please everyone, yet...

Flyer

[RogueLeader]

Second the 1st Sgt diamond is not an achievemnt grade but rather a position grade, just as the military has the 1st, Sgt Major and Cmd Sgt Major. Those are the same pay grade but just have different duties.

In the Army, MSG and 1SG are both E-8's. SGM and CSM are both E-9's.  MSG and SGM are staff NCO's while 1SG and CSM are over troops.

[Eclipse]

Flyer - the only person in a unit who can interpret regulations and direct action is the commander, everyone else is an adviser.
You have an opinion on this, you tell the CC.  He acts or directs action.  Just because he's the CC doesn't mean he will make the proper decision, happens all the time to the detriment of the membership.  Sometimes bad decisions are honest mistakes, sometimes they are willful.  The reasoning doesn't make them "ok", only explains how a person got there.

Toss aside what the KB says, it has no weight of authority and is frequently held to be wrong, or posting interpretations by people
outsider their designated scope and authority.  The fact that an "SME" might be privy to work-product discussions on a given topic,
or know "what is coming", etc., doesn't change the state of the regs today, any more then an insider trader or legislator on a committee
who knows the direction of discussion would.  At best the KB is a short-hand to find a quick answer, but any time the answer conflicts with
regs, or comes up gray, then it has no authority.

Same goes for VG, what they produce is irrelevant unless supported by regulation.

Now, that doesn't mean a CC might not factor in intention and KB answers into a decision.  CC's need something to go on, and thanks to
the ambiguous, cross / internally conflicting nature of our regulations, you have to really pay attention and connect the dots to know the real score.

In this specific case, based on the current state of the regulations, there is no basis of support for the wear of the diamond or the NRA badge. None.  Maybe there was, maybe there will be, but not today.  That happens all the time, too.  If the intention is for the diamond to be worn,
it will be corrected (someday).

You advise your CC as to correct state, and then he will make his decision.  Wrong or right, it's his call.  If it's wrong, he may well have consequences
from higher HQs - anything from "what were you thinking" to "out the door", especially if there are other issues with decisions and this is part of a pattern.

When a decision by the CC is incorrect, you can choose to simply implement and move on, file a complaint (if warranted, which in this case it wouldn't be), or move on yourself to other pastures.

But at the end of the day, right or wrong, the CC is the one who makes the mistakes, your job is to see that he has the information he needs to
avoid most of them, but sometimes people will do what they will do, "because".

[coloncapfl]

I ask that question to Ask the Commander due to the difference in opinions and their answer was a refence to the knowledge base answer ID 1383.

[Eclipse]

Posted today:
http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/library/1sgt/

ERRATA - CADET FIRST SERGEANTS

Local commanders may continue to permit Cadet First Sergeants to wear the Cadet First Sergeant insignia that has been available for nearly 20 years.

Nearly twenty ago, CAP policy makers authorized cadet first sergeants to wear a special diamond insignia. For whatever reason, that rule never made its way into the CAP Uniform Manual where it properly belongs.

In response, a few years ago our team (NHQ/CP) inserted language into CAPR 52-16 to clarify that indeed the diamond is authorized. This was intended as a stopgap administrative solution until a new Uniform Manual could be published. Instead of resolving the problem, that language raised even more legalistic debate because CAPM 39-1 states that only it can speak to uniform matters. And so the diamond language was removed from CAPR 52-16.  But at that same time, via a document in our files dated October 2010, CAP/CC re-confirmed a command intent of using the special diamond insignia to identify cadet first sergeants in the senior NCO grades of C/MSgt, C/SMSgt, and C/CMSgt.

In summary:
Language authorizing the diamond will be incorporated into the next version of CAPM 39-1, which everyone is eagerly and patiently awaiting.
Local commanders are empowered to use their discretion and permit cadet first sergeants to wear the diamond insignia that CAP has long made available.  Such a drawn-out explanation for a very minor matter, but hopefully a satisfactory one... My thanks to everyone in the cadet community for their flexibility in making do with an imperfect solution.

-curt

CURT LAFOND
Deputy Director for Cadet Programs
CAP National Headquarters

[RogueLeader]

Well, that settles that. . .

[Майор Хаткевич]

FINALLY.

[Garibaldi]

So when do we get ABUs?

[Cool Mace]

Tomorrow, Maj.

I'm very glad to see this settled once and for all. I can now die a happy man.

[Eclipse]

Rambo Nothing Is Over

[Dad2-4]

Since the regs don't say I can't, and since I'm an NRA instructor, I'm gonna get me an NRA badge with bunches of rockers and wear it on my CAP ABUs.  Hey, where does that diamond go on an oak leaf? Looks cool. I want one.

[coloncapfl]

I am glad that National finally clarify the issue