Military award on CAP uniform etiquette

[Eclipse]

^ +1.

[docbiochem33]

I have know of several members / former members trolling for salutes.  One I knew used to brag about going to the local AF base and having nothing on that showed him as a CAP officer other than his leather name tape on his flight suit.  He was bragging about how he actually put rank on his flight suit.

I had a Squadron Commander when I was a cadet who was enlisted, but would try to make people where he worked salute him when he was in CAP uniform. 

My brother is on AD and at an encampment at his facility there were 3 senior members who were all E-4 and below when in the service and they were picking out junior enlisted and trying to make them salute.  They tried with my brother and he put them in check by telling them he was in CAP and he knows the regs better then they do.

As far as Seniors not saluting, I actually had a wing staff member tell me that it was not required for him to salute any military officer.  We tried to show him the regulation, but he refused to even look.  The comment I got from a prior service marine was, "Wait until he passes that 2 star downstate and doesn't salute."

Uniforms are still a major issue and it will always be an issue.  If it wasn't then CAP wouldn't have had a portion of the level one on it.  The unit I was in had plenty of prior service people so we were tough on new seniors and cadets and would have classes on how to wear the uniform and how to press it.  This made our people look good, but we then took at hit as an whole when a new senior showed up to a function with a beard and earings up the auricle of his ear.  We all looked so good and then that with the media present.

Yes, the AF needs to tell people who we are, but we as a group need to make sure our people know what they are supposed to do and how they should act and look.

[Eclipse]

Citing .0001% of the membership who are idiots doesn't make the argument any more then citing that 100% of AD / reservists have a clue, either.

Spend 10 minutes on any active military forum with the search tool and you'll find posts by airman that will make your hair stand on end in terms of
attitude towards authority, uniform wear, and related issues.

Every organization has idiots, shaping attitudes or policy based on their actions is a bad idea.

[Nuke52]

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

Maybe so, but...

Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes. 

seriously?

CAP officers are "real officers."  No, we're not commissioned by the president, and no, we're not military officers, but we are absolutely officers of the Civil Air Patrol. 

I assume by the fact that you're reading and posting here on CAP Talk that you're a current CAP member--otherwise why waste your time?--and assuming you are, I find it really odd that you have such a negative opinion of what you do while donating your valuable time to CAP.

[docbiochem33]

I am in and not as active as I once was.  Actually we are not really officers of CAP as those are the corporate boards and the legal sections.  We are officers in CAP and commissioned by CAP.  What I point to is to what I have seen all to many times with CAP members who want to act like they are AD officers.

Twice I have had enlisted members of the Army and AF get up to salute me when in uniform and I just told them not to worry about it since I could see that they were both busy.  I got a funny look from them, but then a thanks.  When I told them I was with CAP and a salute was not required they would say "Thanks" and continue with what they were doing.  Later one of them saw me outside, saluted, said, "Afternoon sir," and I returned the salute and he walked on.  When it happened though there were seniors who were asking why I didn't want the salute and that I deserved it.

The comment on deserving it is what really turned me off.  I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.  I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

People acting foolishly is also why it is sometimes hard for CAP units to get assistance from both the military and the local agencies.  I will say that it looks like some things are changing in this area and there has been some changes in who does what.  This may change some attitudes, but it will be an uphill battle.

[Eclipse]

We don't "deserve" the courtesy of a greeting?

Telling someone who is saluting you that they don't have to is part of the problem.  It is misguided and just causes further issues for everyone.

[68w20]

I am in and not as active as I once was.  Actually we are not really officers of CAP as those are the corporate boards and the legal sections.  We are officers in CAP and commissioned by CAP.  What I point to is to what I have seen all to many times with CAP members who want to act like they are AD officers.

Twice I have had enlisted members of the Army and AF get up to salute me when in uniform and I just told them not to worry about it since I could see that they were both busy.  I got a funny look from them, but then a thanks.  When I told them I was with CAP and a salute was not required they would say "Thanks" and continue with what they were doing.  Later one of them saw me outside, saluted, said, "Afternoon sir," and I returned the salute and he walked on.  When it happened though there were seniors who were asking why I didn't want the salute and that I deserved it.

The comment on deserving it is what really turned me off.  I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.  I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

People acting foolishly is also why it is sometimes hard for CAP units to get assistance from both the military and the local agencies.  I will say that it looks like some things are changing in this area and there has been some changes in who does what.  This may change some attitudes, but it will be an uphill battle.

Speaking as one of the enlisted members of the Army, saluting really isn't a big deal.  It's a courtesy, plain and simple.  I really don't understand why people get bent out of shape about it.  Level 1 teachers CAP Senior Members the personnel from whom they should expect salutes (typically only CAP Cadets, and from senior members of junior rank should the circumstances deem it appropriate to do so).  Any deviation from the common sense of what we're trained to do (ie, trolling for salutes) isn't the fault of CAP's culture. It's the fault of the individuals that are deviating from their training.  You seem adamant that this is an issue.  What, do you feel, is the solution?

[68w20]

We don't "deserve" the courtesy of a greeting?

Telling someone who is saluting you that they don't have to is part of the problem.  It is misguided and just causes further issues for everyone.

+1

[docbiochem33]

I am for a simple greeting.  A hello is what we were told to give if were busy with a detail when an officer approached.  I don't like a "Drop everything" type of deal. 

The other thing I have learned is that when I have done that to members of the services they are later more likely to salute and be friendly later.  One SP guy started to get up to salute me one time and I told him to stay doing what he was doing because he was on break turned out to help me about 15 minutes later.  I got lost in the area I was at and he saw me with that lost look on my face, walked up, asked me if I needed help.  He gave me directions, saluted, and told me to have a nice day.  The guy with me about lost it asking how I could garner a salute when the guy saw I was a CAP and not AF officer.  I simply responded that I was nice to the guy earlier.

[docbiochem33]

A simple solution to the problem is to make sure that members understand that they may receive a salute from some, but it is not required.  Also, they need to discipline cadets and senior members who act foolishly instead of looking past it.

When I was really active, I would tell all new members that they may receive a salute and they should return it, but be careful.  My commander who was also prior service would preach the point too. 

If we had a situation, we would often tell a member that all the information had been gathered and that if they continued we would be seeking assistance from higher command.  This was usually enough.

Unfortunetly, I still get a complaint or two from people I still know on one facility about one person was acting like a fool during an encampment.

[68w20]

I am for a simple greeting.  A hello is what we were told to give if were busy with a detail when an officer approached.  I don't like a "Drop everything" type of deal. 

How do you propose we inform the United States Armed Forces to extend a verbal greeting to CAP Senior Members rather than a salute?  Military personnel are trained to salute officers, which (in the US military) are typically indicated by insignia that is very similar in appearance to that worn on the majority of CAP's uniforms.  Should they run into CAP personnel (which I would wager is a fairly rare instance), they may be inconvenienced for a matter of seconds by saluting.  This really isn't a big deal, and in my opinion you're proposing a convoluted solution for a problem that's negligible at best.

A simple solution to the problem is to make sure that members understand that they may receive a salute from some, but it is not required.  Also, they need to discipline cadets and senior members who act foolishly instead of looking past it.

So essentially what's already taught in Level 1?  What sort of discipline do you propose? 

If we had a situation, we would often tell a member that all the information had been gathered and that if they continued we would be seeking assistance from higher command.  This was usually enough.

Unfortunetly, I still get a complaint or two from people I still know on one facility about one person was acting like a fool during an encampment.

How commonly was this a problem for your unit?  I've been in CAP for nearly a decade and spent a significant amount of time on military posts as both a CAP member and an enlisted Soldier, and I've never seen this happen.

_{edited for grammar}

[docbiochem33]

When I was a cadet it was a major problem.  I used to laugh at the seniors trolling.

When I was on AD I didn't see it because there were not really any big units near me.

Since I have been in I catch hell about once or twice a year.  I get complaints from my brother and a couple of former CAP members who are still in about every encampment other than the time I was out.  My brother ripped me for about 10 minutes over 2 seniors that were creating problems at one encampment.  They were asked to leave early.

I also have seen some of the responses of AD officers when I say I am with CAP.  I have been asked why I am shopping in clothing and sales and when I tell them that I am trying to buy stuff for my CAP uniform I just get a head shake and a look down.  When I ask if there is a problem they usually say no, but I know the look.

I have suggested discipline that includes having the member bring over the regulation and then reading it to the commander.  From there it goes up.

I will say that things are slowly getting better, but that is because some of the people who were problems are gone.  You can't tell a person not to do something or to do something when you have CAP Majors and LTC's walking around ignoring the regs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Since I have been in I catch hell about once or twice a year.  I get complaints from my brother and a couple of former CAP members who are still in about every encampment other than the time I was out.  My brother ripped me for about 10 minutes over 2 seniors that were creating problems at one encampment.  They were asked to leave early.

Your brother and colleagues should not be ripping you.  It is not your responsibility.  It is the responsibility of the commander of the individuals in question.

I also have seen some of the responses of AD officers when I say I am with CAP.  I have been asked why I am shopping in clothing and sales and when I tell them that I am trying to buy stuff for my CAP uniform I just get a head shake and a look down.  When I ask if there is a problem they usually say no, but I know the look.

Who owns the problem?

They choose to take a crap attitude - and that's exactly what it is - toward CAP.

I have never encountered this, but should I ever do so, I would say to the officer in question, if they were senior in rank to me, "Sir, it is not logical nor fair to paint an entire organisation over the actions of a relative few.  If you have formal complaints, I respectfully suggest you take them up your chain of command and let CAP-USAF and relevant CAP personnel deal with them."  If they are equal or junior in rank to me, I would say, "Come on, you are simply not being fair.  You know as well as I do that there are idiots on AD, in the Guard and the Reserve (I was ANG), so don't just try to smear CAP with a goofball label."  I wouldn't be saying that as a senior officer to junior personnel.  I would be saying it as one human being to another, with the confidence of being correct because I know the regs (I have a copy of AFI 10-2701 in my CAP binder and know it well; I doubt many AD, Guard or Reserve could say the same), I know customs and courtesies and I know how to wear the uniform.

There is no bloody way I am going to let anyone, regardless of rank, scapegoat me for all the perceived sins of CAP.  Period.  I haven't done it, so I will not be the lightning rod for it.  Even if a National CC would tell me, "Yes, Captain, you have to let them say whatever they want to you; they're our parent organisation," I will say"Sir/Ma'am, you will be getting my resignation through proper channels.  Excuse me, I have better things to do like offering my services to an organisation that wants them."


I have been in CAP off-and-on since 1993.  I have never seen the kind of behaviour you claim to have seen, and I have attended CAP functions on SAC, ANG and AFRES installations.

In fact, one year at an airshow as a CAP 1st Lt an AFRES 1st Lt saluted me.  I returned the salute, and said "You don't have to salute me, we're both first lieutenants."  He said, "I know that.  I just wanted to show respect to a fellow officer."

I have suggested discipline that includes having the member bring over the regulation and then reading it to the commander.  From there it goes up.

I suggest that AFI 10-2701 be mandatory reading for all CAP personnel, regardless of rank.  It should be required reading with a closed-book test to pass Level I.  If the AF won't educate themselves enough to read their own bloody regulation that they wrote for and about us, then the least we can do is make sure we know what that regulation says.  It should also be posted on a bulletin board in every unit's meeting site (those who have permanent meeting sites).

I will say that things are slowly getting better, but that is because some of the people who were problems are gone.  You can't tell a person not to do something or to do something when you have CAP Majors and LTC's walking around ignoring the regs.

I don't know how old you are, but I will be 47 years old later this month and, as I said, my time with CAP dates back to 1993.  That was just after the berry boards were imposed by the AF (a measure like using a guillotine to cure a headache), punishing the entire organisation for the acts of a few fools.  We got our blue epaulettes (with "CAP") and hard rank taken away, and we are still being punished for something that happened over twenty years ago.

As I've said, a jerk is going to troll for a salute regardless of the colour of the epaulettes they are wearing, and I for one am sick of CAP still taking a whipping for the acts of a few.

[Private Investigator]

Well I am hoping that most CAP members will be more professional in 2013 and play it forward.

You can not fix the past and you can not fix stupid   

[Hawk200]

I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.

You're right, you don't deserve the salute. This part may come as a surprise: It's not about you.

I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

And this is why you receive salutes from military personnel. Whether you like the idea or not, you've been telling those military personnel to ignore their training. They're saluting the rank on your shoulder or collar, not you. The most professional thing you can do is to return it as sharply and professionally as it was rendered to you, and move on. Say "Thank you" when you do, it raises opinions of you and CAP. People don't want to be interrupted with "Oh, please don't salute lil' ol' me, it hurts my inferiority complex," they have things to do. Return it like a professional. Instead of trying to rebuke them, act like a professional, and press on.

Now, I'll agree that there are people that troll. I think it's wrong, and I've caught only a couple people in my fourteen years of CAP doing it. Haven't seen them since. But, I'm pretty sure word got out that there was a guy in CAP and in the military that caught them on the base. I made a point of bringing it up at the Commander's Calls that I attended.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well I am hoping that most CAP members will be more professional in 2013 and play it forward.

You can not fix the past and you can not fix stupid   

Agreed on both points, but if you cannot fix the past, why are we still being punished by the AF for the actions of a few idiots years ago?  If we weren't, we would have hard rank and blue CAP epaulettes back, CAP cutouts on the lapels, and blue nameplates.

Whether you like the idea or not, you've been telling those military personnel to ignore their training. They're saluting the rank on your shoulder or collar, not you.

I ran into this a LOT more in the CG AUX than in CAP.  OK, they have an entirely different system of "offices" instead of ranks, with an alphabet-soup of abbreviations I never did learn.  But the fact is that they look a LOT more like the CG than we do the AF...except for silver braid instead of gold, and little "A" devices in the same hard rank devices that the active CG (and Navy, NOAA, USPHS) use.  I remember being saluted and addressed "Good afternoon, Ensign/Lieutenant," to which I returned the salute and thanked them...no biggie, one would think.  But I ran into a lot of my fellow Auxies who would tell me that when that happened I needed to stop the service member in question and tell them that no, I was not an Ensign or Lieutenant J.G., I was a civilian volunteer in the USCGAUX and it was incorrect for them to salute me (and, yes, I kept Member brass in my pocket for augmentation duty, which I never got to do).

Please, let's not go down that road.

[Hawk200]

I ran into this a LOT more in the CG AUX than in CAP.  OK, they have an entirely different system of "offices" instead of ranks, with an alphabet-soup of abbreviations I never did learn.  But the fact is that they look a LOT more like the CG than we do the AF...except for silver braid instead of gold, and little "A" devices in the same hard rank devices that the active CG (and Navy, NOAA, USPHS) use.  I remember being saluted and addressed "Good afternoon, Ensign/Lieutenant," to which I returned the salute and thanked them...no biggie, one would think.  But I ran into a lot of my fellow Auxies who would tell me that when that happened I needed to stop the service member in question and tell them that no, I was not an Ensign or Lieutenant J.G., I was a civilian volunteer in the USCGAUX and it was incorrect for them to salute me (and, yes, I kept Member brass in my pocket for augmentation duty, which I never got to do).

Please, let's not go down that road.

You did the professional thing, moved on with your business, and let them move on with theirs. I think the people that insist you tell people not to salute us (or in your case, you Auxies) are creating problems. The rank insignia and what it represents gets saluted, not the person.

Then there is the factor of someone not saluting and getting chewed by one of their own for not doing so. Is that fair to them? No, it's not. Before I woke up over this issue, I remember stopping a few Marines that saluted me. Their reply was "No, sir. We cannot comply. We salute the rank insignia. Period. It doesn't matter if you're not comissioned, you're still wearing the rank insignia." That was the big wakeup for me. Let them do as they're trained, and avoid creating issues over it. If we act professionally, they may feel we are deserving of it, anbd that's a pretty high complement.

[Eclipse]

I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.

Really?  Spending copius amounts of your free time serving your country in uniform isn't enough?  I strongly disagree, but so be it.  As hawk says, this isn't about you.

I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

The bold part is all that was necessary.

Return the salute, put the room at ease, or return the greeting and move on.  Don't insult them, CAP, or anyone else in uniform by making a huge deal out of a routine greeting, or trying to subjugate CAP to other services.  We are who we are, they are who they are.  We both have jobs to do, and neither is subordinate to the other.

This constant thread of CAP being somehow second class to military services is so counterproductive.  We should not be walking around, hat-in-hand, like we're just lucky to be there at all.  I'd say in at least 1/2 the cases where I've intersected with other military personnel, I was doing them a service, not the other way around, and on my own nickel.  In another 1/4, we were working together towards a common goal, side by side.  And in those cases where the equation was flipped, the relationship was just as professional as them assisting any other agency.

And Dobi, I'm not saying you didn't have issues, but based on my experiences, with commands and major activities on a large active-duty base from another service, I have to say that you must have had 80% of all the goobers in CAP in your AOR, because I've heard the wives tales, but haven't ever seen it and I've had a fair number of people in my AOR that would be inclined to that sort of behavior given the opportunity.  If anything, my experience has been the opposite, with CAP officers being so unaware of their surroundings that they don't return salutes and other courtesies because they
don't understand they are supposed to.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You did the professional thing, moved on with your business, and let them move on with theirs. I think the people that insist you tell people not to salute us (or in your case, you Auxies) are creating problems. The rank insignia and what it represents gets saluted, not the person.

Thank you.  I would never do that.  At times I feel like there is an undercurrent within CAP that thinks if we just get rid of all uniforms with rank insignia on them, hey, presto, no more issues with saluting.  Stick everyone in polos, go back to the pre-1995 grey/white/blazer, problem solved.  That is an opinion I do not share.

This constant thread of CAP being somehow second class to military services is so counterproductive.  We should not be walking around, hat-in-hand, like we're just lucky to be there at all.

THANK YOU! :clap:

I have noticed a trend in that increasing since at least the mid-'90s, and it comes a lot more from our own membership than it does the AF.

I had a former unit CC who told me that when she went to MCSS she almost always did it in civvies (or polo) because she didn't want to do something that would make us look bad in the eyes of the AF, and she recommended that others do so.

This has got to stop.  I admit I've got to the point at times where I've been on base in a correctly worn uniform, but yet feel like I should wear some sandwich-board sign saying "NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TROLL FOR SALUTES" on one side and "I'M ONLY HERE TO GET CAP UNIFORM ITEMS, NOT TO USE THE BX/COMMISSARY" on the other.

Either this attitude has to stop, or else completely cut us loose from the AF.

[Rick-DEL]

Totally Agree. I am one who never trolls for a salute (from enlisted / lower officer)...but have absolutely no issue popping one out to an officer passing by when I do stop on base in uniform. Maybe it is out of habit from my USAF days...or out of total respect for those who serve. Most likely both.