Updating the Cadet Honor Guard/Color Guard Uniforms?

[AngelWings]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

[Extremepredjudice]

AHGHGHHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH


NO.

We don't need more uniform changes until 39-1 catches up.

[spaatzmom]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

The uniforms for HG were determined by the Air Force and duplicate with a bit of distinction what they wear.  It took a lot for them to approve it also so why would we want to potentially offend them?  Why would you want to jazz up a uniform that when worn correctly and with a sharp performance looks great?  Why would you want to add to the already expensive venture these cadets have invested in?  I don't believe there is a problem needing a solution.

[a2capt]

We don't need more uniform changes until 39-1 catches up.

I'm going to go on the premise that the comments were made with that in mind.

Why make it more expensive?

It works like it is.

It absolutely does.

[Texas Raiders]

Here is another overlooked thing. While we've beaten the ABU horse to death, talked about updating the flightsuits to the current USAF style, and possibly even some things about the Service Dress, I don't recall and cannot find any topics worthwhile about updating the HG/CG uniforms.

A few questions:

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments? Like cords, ascots, etc., to mirror the USAF HG?

Do you believe there should be an update to the white/nickel belts to the current USAF belts? Could an updated distinctive belt be a better option?

Do you believe there should be the addition of cold weather ear muffs/hats like those used by the USAF HG/CG?

Would it be too impractical for a squadron to send their squadrons uniforms to the dry cleaners when preparing for a performance?

The reasons I ask is because I have noticed that the current HG/CG uniform looks outdated and drab compared to todays USAF HG/CG teams, but also we do not have the same amount of money as they do. I believe this could lead into interesting segways about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

The uniforms for HG were determined by the Air Force and duplicate with a bit of distinction what they wear.  It took a lot for them to approve it also so why would we want to potentially offend them?  Why would you want to jazz up a uniform that when worn correctly and with a sharp performance looks great?  Why would you want to add to the already expensive venture these cadets have invested in?  I don't believe there is a problem needing a solution.

Hear, hear!

All the bling adds up to major bucks. Besides, you'd never use it enough to justify the purchase. In my mind, the only acceptable additions or changes would be the white shirt and blue tie. I never liked the ascot. Everything else looks good when worn PROPERLY.

Those winter hats that were mentioned look ridiculous. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when have on of those fuzzy things on!  Oh, and as far a the dry cleaning goes.....that responsibility falls on the cadet. It's his or her responsibility to maintain that uniform. I won't let a ceremonial detail go out in public in dirty unpressed uniforms! 

Everything on the list below is nice, but wont work for CAP.

USAF HG combination cover
USAF HG belt
Cheaters
HG tab/rocker patch
Trouser and sleeve striping
Sunglasses....... Yes, I said sunglasses.

[jimmydeanno]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

[SarDragon]

Do you believe there should be an update to the current uniform in terms of the accounterments accoutrements?

I believe this could lead into interesting segways segues about what could be improved with the uniforms and what should stay the same if we ever were to update them.

FTFY.

As for your Qs:

No. What's really broken here? Who's going to pay for the change?

No. See above.

Is there anything definitive that says we can't? If there is, this would be a good change.

That would depend on available funds, but it's a good idea. We used to send our drill team and color guard uniforms (olde style khaki) out to the cleaners for appropriate starching and pressing.

[flyboy53]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

I couldn't agree more.

What's more important, truly sharp execution of drill and movements or more bling.

More bling makes a sloppy team only look worse. A truly sharp basic uniform reflects discipline, especially when combined with the sharp drill and ceremony.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think that it should be stripped down.  Ditch the ascot and patch, cheaters, white pistol belt, etc.  I think our honor guard uniform should be Service Dress with the cord and service cap.  It's easily assembled, and doesn't start looking tacky.

I couldn't agree more.

What's more important, truly sharp execution of drill and movements or more bling.

More bling makes a sloppy team only look worse. A truly sharp basic uniform reflects discipline, especially when combined with the sharp drill and ceremony.

I never liked the ascot and my fiancee back then called it a bib...

The cover and belt should be more than enough. I'm iffy on the cord, mainly due to the color/texture of it.

[Pylon]

Can honor guards perform honor guard duties in the standard blues uniform?

[Extremepredjudice]

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

[Texas Raiders]

Reference CAPR 39-1 Chapter 3 for the standardized HG uniform.  Unfortunately, there is a discrepancy between 39-1 and the Unit Honor Guard Manual.  CAPR 39-1 Ch 3, Par 1 states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, color guards, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform."  The Unit HG manual shows all members wearing the stadardized HG uniform regardless of ceremonial detail, ie. color guard, wreath laying, drill team, funeral detail, etc.  As you can see, these two references are in contradiction of eachother.  Clarification is needed. 

The use of the standard service dress blue uniform is perfectly acceptable for rendering ceremonial honors and should be used in absence of the standardized HG uniform or any wing approved ceremonial uniform.  This is common practice in most, if not all military branches.

[Flying Pig]

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

^  Why do they need those items?   The more basic the uniform, the more sharp it looks.

[Extremepredjudice]

Reference CAPR 39-1 Chapter 3 for the standardized HG uniform.  Unfortunately, there is a discrepancy between 39-1 and the Unit Honor Guard Manual.  CAPR 39-1 Ch 3, Par 1 states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, color guards, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform."  The Unit HG manual shows all members wearing the stadardized HG uniform regardless of ceremonial detail, ie. color guard, wreath laying, drill team, funeral detail, etc.  As you can see, these two references are in contradiction of eachother.  Clarification is needed. 

The use of the standard service dress blue uniform is perfectly acceptable for rendering ceremonial honors and should be used in absence of the standardized HG uniform or any wing approved ceremonial uniform.  This is common practice in most, if not all military branches.

Colors element != color guard. There is no contradiction

The HG uniform should be used. Period. Do not use service dress.

Kinda. They can do it in short sleeve blues, but they still need the ascot, belt, cord, and hat.

^  Why do they need those items?   The more basic the uniform, the more sharp it looks.

Because they are required in the regs.

[PHall]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

[Extremepredjudice]

Clean and simple is great. But with honor guards, there are two uniforms. One with service coat, one with short sleeve blues

[Texas Raiders]

Yes, colors elemet and color guard refers to the same ceremonial detail.  However, refer to Unit Honor Guard Manual, CAPP 52-8 Page 15, Chapter 5- Colors Element/Color Guard..........look to the right and observe the photo of the colors element/color guard.  They are wearing the standardized HG uniform as prescribed in CAPR39-1.  The contradiction between the two manuals appears in CAPR39-1, Chapter 3, Paragraph 1, which states, "National Cadet Competition drill teams, COLOR GUARDS, or other CAP special teams will not wear this uniform." 

That sentence is pretty clear.  The photo in the HG manual contradicts that sentence.  Once again, clarification is needed. 

The use of the service dress blue uniform in lieu of the HG uniform is not found anywhere in CAPR39-1.  Therefore, nothing says that you can't wear it when participating in ceremonial detail. 

If you're going to say something is required in the regs, then follow the regs. 

For further reading pleasure there is CAPM 50-16 C-1, National Color Guard Competition, which has this to say.....
17-4. Uniforms.
a. Color Guard Uniform. All uniform items must
be worn in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol
Uniform Manual.
(1) The authorized uniform for male cadets is the
short-sleeve blue shirt (with epaulets) and blue trousers.
For female cadets, the authorized uniform is the shortsleeve
blue blouse and blue slacks. Ribbons and white
shoulder cord will be worn. The above uniforms are to be
worn for the drill portions of the competition, the written
exam, and the awards banquet. All members of a team
must be in the same style shirts, trousers/slacks and
each will wear the same style headgear.
(2) Cadets may wear any other uniform items that
pertain to color guards (such as ascots, white gloves,
dress boots, helmets, pistol belts, etc.), as long as all
team members are uniform and as long as all items
being worn are approved by the team’s respective region
commander. (see CAPM 39-1, Chapter 9-1 through 9-3
for authorized uniform items).

[Майор Хаткевич]

The CAP Honor Guard Program has zero to do with the National Cadet Competition. When the Honor Guard does any of the above, they wear the CAPHG Uniform. If cadets are part of NCC, they are not allowed to wear the HG uniform, they are supposed to wear the standard blues with CAP specific Color Guard items.

There's no contradiction because these are unrelated events with different uniforms.

[Flying Pig]

Are you talking about HG school, or cadets who are participating in HG activities outside in the real world?  I dont think I have seen a cadet color guard, honor guard or whatever we are calling it these days in anything but blues.   I think its interesting that cadets always want to dress up flashy like a road flare just to carry the flag.  Tone down the uniforms so the focus is on the flag, not the cadets who look like a confetti factory exploded on them.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

I was always under the impression that Color guards required the plain white ascots, white gloves, white cords, white belts. Is that not so? Can anyone link me to the latest NCC documents for CG as well?

Thanks.

[Cool Mace]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

I was always under the impression that Color guards required the plain white ascots, white gloves, white cords, white belts. Is that not so? Can anyone link me to the latest NCC documents for CG as well?

Thanks.

I've never seen CG's wear ascots at comp. CAPM 52-4 http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M524_BA28735E30531.pdf

As for the gloves, cords, ect. That is worn while at competition.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's actually really good to hear. I have serious issues with the ascots. While you can make them look "good" with a lot of effort, they look terrible overall.

Wasn't aware that they had made a CAPM for NCC. WIWAC it was some guide put together in FLWG IIRC.

[Texas Raiders]

The CAP Honor Guard Program has zero to do with the National Cadet Competition. When the Honor Guard does any of the above, they wear the CAPHG Uniform. If cadets are part of NCC, they are not allowed to wear the HG uniform, they are supposed to wear the standard blues with CAP specific Color Guard items.

There's no contradiction because these are unrelated events with different uniforms.

Roger.  I guess the color guard will need more gear.

I'm sorry for taking us off topic.  I don't think the HG uniform needs updating.

[RogueLeader]

The use of the standard service dress blue uniform is perfectly acceptable for rendering ceremonial honors and should be used in absence of the standardized HG uniform or any wing approved ceremonial uniform.  This is common practice in most, if not all military branches.

This worked well for the 12 funeral details that I had the honor to be apart of as part of the Army.  Just my Greens, jump boots, Maroon beret, and M-4 Carbine (7 funerals with bugle).

[Texas Raiders]

The CAP Honor Guard Program has zero to do with the National Cadet Competition. When the Honor Guard does any of the above, they wear the CAPHG Uniform. If cadets are part of NCC, they are not allowed to wear the HG uniform, they are supposed to wear the standard blues with CAP specific Color Guard items.

There's no contradiction because these are unrelated events with different uniforms.

Roger.

I'm sorry for taking us off topic.  I don't think the HG uniform needs updating.

[Cool Mace]

That's actually really good to hear. I have serious issues with the ascots. While you can make them look "good" with a lot of effort, they look terrible overall.

Wasn't aware that they had made a CAPM for NCC. WIWAC it was some guide put together in FLWG IIRC.

I agree with the ascots...

I know what you mean about the guide. It was pretty vague in areas. More so than 39-1.

[AngelWings]

Here's my own opinions:

I would like to see, when the economy turns around and we have money to, see some modernization of our current HG/CG uniforms. I do agree it is definitely not a huge concern, just an aesthetical boost could be made and be acceptable finacially. My things I would like to see updated is the cords to be standardized above the epaulet (the current cords I've seen are all designed to be worn under the epaulet) considering that the new style is now in use and standardization to using all new style coats. Just some small things that could be improved.

The current belts, in my opinion, could be changed purely for a "why not" reason. I'd like to see a CAP distinctive belt in rich colors that match our uniforms, with a distinctive buckle if it's not too expensive IE under $100. Again, that's one of those "well now wouldn't that be cool" things.

Ear muffs or the USAF hats are not authorized for the HG/CG uniform, but I believe they should be. They could be worn with the all weather coat, mirroring the USAF HG regulations, during inclement weather.

I want to see dry cleaners be utilized by HG/CG to create the proper crisp image that a HG/CG should always have. If money is around, I believe we should take the factor of "did that cadet iron his uniform w/o making railroad tracks, making it shiny or burning it, and does it meet our standards?" personally. It's one of my pet peeves, considering how little action most HG/CG details get used.

I really like the ascot for one reason I am not going to state, but it makes its use a lot more practical.

[PHall]

I just served as a judge at a Group Color Guard Comp last Saturday. We had two teams competing.

One team wore just the bare minimum required uniform, but it was clean and they all wore it properly.

The other team was wearing some extra items (ascots, white rifle slings), but there was some dirt on the slings and they were wearing two types of shoes (leather and corfam) and shirt garters were not being worn.

Wanna guess which team won the Uniform Inspection part of the comp?

Clean and simple is the way to go when you're talking uniforms...

I was always under the impression that Color guards required the plain white ascots, white gloves, white cords, white belts. Is that not so? Can anyone link me to the latest NCC documents for CG as well?

Thanks.

CAPR 52-4 is your friend.

[Mustang]

I'd say there's a greater chance of the HG uniform being eliminated entirely than new doodads being approved. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'd say there's a greater chance of the HG uniform being eliminated entirely than new doodads being approved.

Possibly. Nothing wrong with a color guard in Service Dress.

[PA Guy]

I'd say there's a greater chance of the HG uniform being eliminated entirely than new doodads being approved.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[coloncapfl]

I see a lot of people pinion in the negative on this matter, but my first question is, How many of you have been either former cadets or former military? and if in the military, have you been in an Honor guard?
I understand that the economy is bad and that we cant ask this cadets for more, but I think that a happy medium which is allow an optional uniform with extra additions ( near like the AF/HG) and the regular Dress uniform.
About comparing a Sloppy looking HG uniform vs a sharp simple uniform  of course the sharp looks good but on the other coin a sloppy service uniform and a sharp HG uniform which looks best?
I was a Drill team/HG when I was a cadet and we did fun raising activities to get our uniforms, and We loved the fact of the distinction in uniform from the regular uniform. It gave us a sense of pride, the same when I was in the military color guard. Unless you have been in it in reality you really don't find an appreciation for it. About the Ascot, there are ways to make it look sharp.

Finally I have to say that it troubles me to hear people (not necessarily in this thread) that wants to get rid of any AF style uniform all together. This is an Official auxiliary of the Air Force, if you don't like the AF uniform then just don't join the organization. I believe if that comes to happen, more than have of the youth in the program will leave the program. Thai is my opinion and my intention is not to offend anyone, but I have to thank my outstanding performance during my time in the military to my cadet roots in CAP.

Thank you for your time

[Pylon]

I see a lot of people pinion in the negative on this matter, but my first question is, How many of you have been either former cadets or former military? and if in the military, have you been in an Honor guard?

Yes, yes, and yes.  Former cadet, U.S. Marine, and have served on military funeral honor guard duties.  And guess what?  I still think our cadets can do any ceremonials just fine in the regular service dress uniforms.  Save the money, save the extra level of complication, focus on the work.   If you need extra doodads on your uniform to get that sense of pride, then you're doing it wrong.  It is not, nor should it ever be, about the uniform; it's about what we do.

[Texas Raiders]

How many of you have been either former cadets or former military? and if in the military, have you been in an Honor guard?

I am both a former cadet (a member of my squadron's honor guard) and a military veteran.  While I served on many unit level ceremonial details, (color guard, funeral, wreath laying, bos'n and side boys, etc.) I was never bestowed the privelege of serving with my service's honor guard.  Can I still play?      

I understand that the economy is bad and that we cant ask this cadets for more, but I think that a happy medium which is allow an optional uniform with extra additions ( near like the AF/HG) and the regular Dress uniform.

Such a uniform already exists.  It is the current HG uniform.

About comparing a Sloppy looking HG uniform vs a sharp simple uniform  of course the sharp looks good but on the other coin a sloppy service uniform and a sharp HG uniform which looks best?

The sharper uniform always looks better, regardless of what kind.  Just because it says "honor guard" on it, doesn't make it better.

About the Ascot, there are ways to make it look sharp.

Please elaborate!   

The HG isn't about making people feel good nor is the uniform.  The Honor Guard is about rendering honors, paying respect, and positive representation.  Serving in an HG is a privelege and should be a source of pride.  The HG uniform is the symbol of membership in that detail.  One way members exhibit their pride is through the proper care and wear of the uniform.  This is not limited to HG members.  The wearing any CAP uniform is a privelege and should be done so properly. 

[Texas Raiders]

Pylon had it right before I could submit.

[Rosco P]

I am the senior member in charge of the cadets color guard and honor guard and because we are in a active AF military base we must be at our best. Yes, we know that it is expensive but guess what?? we do fund raises....it seems to me that you have forgotten one of our core values, community service, we do it constantly and since they see us they do monetary donations so we can buy our uniforms and keep them sharp for both teams honor and color....my suggest try to get a senior member who is motivated to the cause and train properly....those who are saying cost too much try to look for ways to be closer to your community and you will see the result...or just write letter to your local AFB, we get donations constantly...my point is be motivated and you will see result

[abdsp51]

I am the senior member in charge of the cadets color guard and honor guard and because we are in a active AF military base we must be at our best. Yes, we know that it is expensive but guess what?? we do fund raises....it seems to me that you have forgotten one of our core values, community service, we do it constantly and since they see us they do monetary donations so we can buy our uniforms and keep them sharp for both teams honor and color....my suggest try to get a senior member who is motivated to the cause and train properly....those who are saying cost too much try to look for ways to be closer to your community and you will see the result...or just write letter to your local AFB, we get donations constantly...my point is be motivated and you will see result

You must be near Luke then and funny I can't find your charter anywhere....

[RogueLeader]

I am the senior member in charge of the cadets color guard and honor guard and because we are in a active AF military base we must be at our best. Yes, we know that it is expensive but guess what?? we do fund raises....it seems to me that you have forgotten one of our core values, community service, we do it constantly and since they see us they do monetary donations so we can buy our uniforms and keep them sharp for both teams honor and color....my suggest try to get a senior member who is motivated to the cause and train properly....those who are saying cost too much try to look for ways to be closer to your community and you will see the result...or just write letter to your local AFB, we get donations constantly...my point is be motivated and you will see result

You must be near Luke then and funny I can't find your charter anywhere....

AZ-220 is Luke Cadet Squadron 356.

[abdsp51]

I am the senior member in charge of the cadets color guard and honor guard and because we are in a active AF military base we must be at our best. Yes, we know that it is expensive but guess what?? we do fund raises....it seems to me that you have forgotten one of our core values, community service, we do it constantly and since they see us they do monetary donations so we can buy our uniforms and keep them sharp for both teams honor and color....my suggest try to get a senior member who is motivated to the cause and train properly....those who are saying cost too much try to look for ways to be closer to your community and you will see the result...or just write letter to your local AFB, we get donations constantly...my point is be motivated and you will see result

You must be near Luke then and funny I can't find your charter anywhere....

AZ-220 is Luke Cadet Squadron 356.

Tango,  found it after you posted that.  Honestly Honor/Color Guards don't need tailored uniforms to perform their functions.

[Texas Raiders]

I am the senior member in charge of the cadets color guard and honor guard and because we are in a active AF military base we must be at our best. Yes, we know that it is expensive but guess what?? we do fund raises....it seems to me that you have forgotten one of our core values, community service, we do it constantly and since they see us they do monetary donations so we can buy our uniforms and keep them sharp for both teams honor and color....my suggest try to get a senior member who is motivated to the cause and train properly....those who are saying cost too much try to look for ways to be closer to your community and you will see the result...or just write letter to your local AFB, we get donations constantly...my point is be motivated and you will see result

Honestly Honor/Color Guards don't need tailored uniforms to perform their functions.

+1

Also, community service is not a core value.  Volunteer service is though.  I know, I know.......semantics.   

[OldGuard]

I was a cadet and prior service Army Honor Guard "Continental Color Guard". As a cadet I went to NCC twice and we had tailored uniforms that were purchased by the squadron. The HG uniform is ugly but if the cadets want to wear it I support them.

[coloncapfl]

Exactly. Just because a an individual don't have a taste for a certain uniform it does not mean that everybody has to follow suit. If a squadron wants to have the HG uniform and they can afford them, more power to them. If others can't and are ok with it then good for them but to take away something because it costs more is not our call. I understand that the main point of HG is the duty, but if they want a fancy uniform with it then that's up to that unit. There are more important issues in CAP. I have gotten uniforms and all the bells and whistles on my previous unit by getting sponsors from the local community. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stand out.