Deputy commanders?

[okeecap]

Is the deputy commander of seniors a higher ranking position than the deputy commander of cadet, or are they an equal position?  Can in the absence of the unit commander the deputy commander of cadets run the meeting or does the deputy commander of seniors have to?

[RogueLeader]

They are typically equal positions. It all depends on how the squadron commander has it set up.

[Eclipse]

Is the deputy commander of seniors a higher ranking position than the deputy commander of cadet, or are they an equal position?  Can in the absence of the unit commander the deputy commander of cadets run the meeting or does the deputy commander of seniors have to?

There is no inherent hierarchy unless the commander designates one.

Anyone who is OK'ed by the commander can run a meeting.

[SARDOC]

In my Squadron they are both equals.  I usually defer the meeting to my Deputy Commander for Seniors because he has more experience and the Deputy Commander for Cadets is typically up to his neck in Cadet Programs activities that I think if I task him with anything else he might pop.

[okeecap]

That to was my original impression, that the positions were equal until in a very rude way the deputy commander of seniors told me he was the deputy commander of the squadron and my position was a less important position compared to his.  Note this is a squadron with five seniors and twelve cadets.

[cap235629]

That to was my original impression, that the positions were equal until in a very rude way the deputy commander of seniors told me he was the deputy commander of the squadron and my position was a less important position compared to his.  Note this is a squadron with five seniors and twelve cadets.

too many chiefs.......

[Pylon]

Doesn't matter in the grand scheme.  Focus on running an awesome cadet program while he's busy running a meeting.  It's not like the Deputy (of either flavor) can make any real command-decisions in a commander's brief absence from one meeting anyway.  Whoever fills in the for the commander at a meeting is really just acting like a parliamentarian.


Also, just remember that what you're posting here about disputes with other members or problems at your unit is tied to your name, your unit, and is publicly accessible even to non-registered viewers of the site, and furthermore lives here or in search engines in perpetuity.

[Grumpy]

That to was my original impression, that the positions were equal until in a very rude way the deputy commander of seniors told me he was the deputy commander of the squadron and my position was a less important position compared to his.  Note this is a squadron with five seniors and twelve cadets.

We have 81 cadets and 35 seniors.  While both deputies are equal, we find that it's easier for the deputy for seniors to step in for the commander because the deputy for cadets has his hands full with the cadet program.

[Private Investigator]

The CDC and CDS are equals and that is it.

One meeting a month the Cadets and Seniors are together for promotions, awards, etc. All the other times the CDC is doing his thing and the CDS is doing his. When I went on vacation I left the CDC in charge overall. The next time I went on vacation the CDS was in charge. 

[Flying Pig]

In my Squadron both were equals, but the Deputy Commander for Seniors filled in for me in my abcenses. 

[Dad2-4]

Also, just remember that what you're posting here about disputes with other members or problems at your unit is tied to your name, your unit, and is publicly accessible even to non-registered viewers of the site, and furthermore lives here or in search engines in perpetuity.

I agree with others in that there is no hierarchy between the CDS and CDC unless the CC has set it up that way. Having been a CDC for several years, I'd be highly pissed if a CDS told me that my job was less important, especially seeing that cadets made up twice the membership as SMs.
Pylon, how is someone's name and unit publicly accessible? That information is often not even in a CT members profile.  And how do unregistered viewers access it?

[SarDragon]

Also, just remember that what you're posting here about disputes with other members or problems at your unit is tied to your name, your unit, and is publicly accessible even to non-registered viewers of the site, and furthermore lives here or in search engines in perpetuity.

I agree with others in that there is no hierarchy between the CDS and CDC unless the CC has set it up that way. Having been a CDC for several years, I'd be highly pissed if a CDS told me that my job was less important, especially seeing that cadets made up twice the membership as SMs.
Pylon, how is someone's name and unit publicly accessible? That information is often not even in a CT members profile.  And how do unregistered viewers access it?

Original post, copied, when not logged in.

Unit: SER-FL-453   
   
Deputy commanders?
« on: Yesterday at 09:47:10 PM »    
Is the deputy commander of seniors a higher ranking position than the deputy commander of cadet, or are they an equal position?  Can in the absence of the unit commander the deputy commander of cadets run the meeting or does the deputy commander of seniors have to?
   Logged
A.Garcia 2nd LT CAP
Deputy Commander
of Cadets OCCS

It's all there - name, unit, position.

[Garibaldi]

I often have to temper my replies, posts, and stories because I don't really want the wrong person to read them, but...I really don't have a whole lot to hide or say that would, in my opinion, negatively impact those folks above me in the food chain or my unit.

[PHall]

Which gets us back to Rule #1 for posting on the Internet.

"Don't post anything you don't want your Boss/Husband/Wife/Mother to read, because they will see it, eventually..."

[Garibaldi]

So that pic of me and the beer imbibing device (rhymes with gong) SHOULDN'T be on my Facebook? No wonder I can't get a real job...

[lordmonar]

The whole vice vs deputy debate.

A deputy commander is in charge of one aspect of the mission...be it a functional area, geographical area, etc.

In the absence of the commander...his authority does not automatically devolved to anyone unless specificaly disignated.

Now...having said that....

In your "ideal" composite squadron.....it should almost make zero difference if the commander is there or not.  Policies he set for his CDC still apply and the CDS should not be making big policy changes that affect cadet operations in his absence.

However....operationaly the CDS would take on more authority as all the operations other than cadets should fall under him.

[LGM30GMCC]

Another way to look at it for devolution of command would be which deputy commander has higher grade. This is what we basically did in my last unit. I was a Maj, the CDC was a Captain, easy fix.

Or if they are both the same grade, or if you would prefer, go for the one with more PD under their belt.

Or go for the one with more total Time in Service.

There are lots of ways to figure it out. However if you are spending your time having a pissing contest about it, you're not doing any of your subordinates, or yourself, a favor. Power squabbles just make everyone either look poorly on both people involved, or start to take sides. Neither is healthy for a squadron.

[Tim Medeiros]

With my unit, I have stated the CDS is the head honcho in my absence.  The factors being 1) time in service, 2) time as a senior, and 3) because I cannot delegate the temporary CC permissions in eServices to my CDC.

[Pylon]

Pylon, how is someone's name and unit publicly accessible? That information is often not even in a CT members profile.  And how do unregistered viewers access it?

That was specifically addressed to the original poster in this thread.  In his case (and in many CAPTalk members' cases) they choose to share their name, rank, unit affiliation, etc. in their signature block and/or by filling in the unit number field on their profiles.  The unit field and signature block are viewable on every post.  So while unregistered users cannot view member profiles, they can view posts which contain this info.

Obviously, if you choose not to share that information then it is not available to registered or unregistered users.  But even members who have chosen to remain anonymous here have sometimes discovered that the internet is not as anonymous as one thinks.

[RogueLeader]

But even members who have chosen to remain anonymous here have sometimes discovered that the internet is not as anonymous as one thinks.

Back in the day, before I "outed" myself (late 2007); I posted harsh and critical things about Iowa Wing command.  I found myself in front of the Wing CC, with serious consideration of a 2B for insubordination.  I was given a second chance, thankfully.

[RiverAux]

While it is pretty clear that both deputies are equal, should there be a "Squadron Executive Officer" Or "Vice Commander"  in composite squadrons that is the official second in command? 

It would make it slightly easier figure out who to contact if the squadron commander isn't available and perhaps allow for a more orderly transition. 

[Eclipse]

While it is pretty clear that both deputies are equal, should there be a "Squadron Executive Officer" Or "Vice Commander"  in composite squadrons that is the official second in command? 

It would make it slightly easier figure out who to contact if the squadron commander isn't available and perhaps allow for a more orderly transition.

I would say "no", if only because the times it would ever be needed would approach zero for the majority of units.

There should never be a question as to who's "in charge", so if anyone in the chain, especially the CD's are ever hazy about that,
they should ask before it becomes an issue.  Any CD asserting made-up authority over another is likely to already have "control issues",
and maybe shouldn't be a CD at all.

In the unexpected absence of a Unit CC, both sides of the program should be structured enough so there's no need to worry about
either side being "in charge" both the CDC and CDS should have all the rights they need to get their jobs done, and since we're not talking
about authenticator cards or simultaneously turning keys, there's very little that "has to be done NOW", in a typical squadron that could not
wait until the Unit CC is back.  (Plus, absent illness, who's ever "gone" anymore?  You can do approvals from an airplane these days,
so no one should ever be "gone".)

In a case where there is unexpected longer-term abcense, then either the Unit CC or wing CC should appoint someone as interim / temp CC.
In the case where a unit CC is removed, it's the Wing CC's call, as someone has to be in the Unit CC slot.  But again, if two adults can't
find a way to work together at that level without causing dissension or drama, then it's time to change them as well.

[RogueLeader]

(Plus, absent illness, who's ever "gone" anymore?  You can do approvals from an airplane these days,
so no one should ever be "gone".)

Those CAP members who deploy or PCS. . .

That's why I'm likely to become the CC in the next 6 months.

[Eclipse]

(Plus, absent illness, who's ever "gone" anymore?  You can do approvals from an airplane these days,
so no one should ever be "gone".)

Those CAP members who deploy or PCS. . .

A PCS or deployment is probably justification for permanent change of command.  Though with that said, as long as there is
internet, you can do CAP business (assuming you'd want to).

I've had members who were part of SUI teams and did the entire inspection remotely while on USAF TDY (in CONUS).

[Private Investigator]

While it is pretty clear that both deputies are equal, should there be a "Squadron Executive Officer" Or "Vice Commander"  in composite squadrons that is the official second in command? 

It would make it slightly easier figure out who to contact if the squadron commander isn't available and perhaps allow for a more orderly transition.

No. Why create new positions? But I do know Squadrons that have XOs, Vices, Deputies and Assistant Commanders. Sad thing about that is none wants to step up and be the CC.   

[Eclipse]

While it is pretty clear that both deputies are equal, should there be a "Squadron Executive Officer" Or "Vice Commander"  in composite squadrons that is the official second in command? 

It would make it slightly easier figure out who to contact if the squadron commander isn't available and perhaps allow for a more orderly transition.

No. Why create new positions? But I do know Squadrons that have XOs, Vices, Deputies and Assistant Commanders. Sad thing about that is none wants to step up and be the CC.   

Everyone wants authority, few will accept responsibility.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Authority or "prestige"...

[lordmonar]

While it is pretty clear that both deputies are equal, should there be a "Squadron Executive Officer" Or "Vice Commander"  in composite squadrons that is the official second in command? 

It would make it slightly easier figure out who to contact if the squadron commander isn't available and perhaps allow for a more orderly transition.

No. Why create new positions? But I do know Squadrons that have XOs, Vices, Deputies and Assistant Commanders. Sad thing about that is none wants to step up and be the CC.   

Well....it depends on how you organise your squadron.

In an AD Flying squadron you have the Commander and the DO (deputy for operations) as the number one and number two guys in the squadron...but then you have XO who bosses over the admin, finance, personnel, support functions of the squadron.

My current CAP squadron if organised that way.

The Commander has two deputys and one XO.
CDC owns all the cadet functions.   CDS owns all the operations.  XO owns all the admin, support, supply, personnel, Professional Develpment functions.

So the two deputies have clear operational lines that they rule over....and the support functions that help both operations is under another branch of the organisation.

[RiverAux]

The Commander has two deputys and one XO.

Uh, just how is this possible given the mandated organization charts we have that have no allowance for an XO? 

[SarDragon]

The Commander has two deputys and one XO.

Uh, just how is this possible given the mandated organization charts we have that have no allowance for an XO?

Mandated? I've only ever seen them as strong suggestions. Two of the units I've been have modified the structure, due to needs, and the inspectors have never even blinked.

[JeffDG]

The Commander has two deputys and one XO.

Uh, just how is this possible given the mandated organization charts we have that have no allowance for an XO?

Mandated? I've only ever seen them as strong suggestions. Two of the units I've been have modified the structure, due to needs, and the inspectors have never even blinked.

CAPR 20-1:

21.  Field Organization:
a. Headquarters  organizational  structures for each
level of command throughout CAP are depicted in part II.
This basic organizational structure has been determined to
be the most workable structure for all CAP units, and
deviations are not authorized, except to expand particular
staff  elements as required to accomplish the unit's
mission

Sounds like they're "Mandated" to me.

[Eclipse]

Yep.  The creation of made up, local titles and authority was prohibited several years ago.

There's no such thing as an XO in a CAP unit, nor a Vice any thing or Chief Of Staff below wing.

[Cool Mace]

Jeff,

Quote
21.  Field Organization:
a. Headquarters  organizational  structures for each
level of command throughout CAP are depicted in part II.
This basic organizational structure has been determined to
be the most workable structure for all CAP units, and
deviations are not authorized, except to expand particular
staff  elements as required to accomplish the unit's
mission


Now it says you can expand to accomplish the units mission. Since we have Sr's on Exec. staff, could you not place in XO over them?
It makes sense that you can expand to have an XO to accomplish the units mission.

[SARDOC]

^^^^Oh see...you weren't supposed to read the whole sentence...Just the Bold Highlighted section.

[JeffDG]

Jeff,

Quote
21.  Field Organization:
a. Headquarters  organizational  structures for each
level of command throughout CAP are depicted in part II.
This basic organizational structure has been determined to
be the most workable structure for all CAP units, and
deviations are not authorized, except to expand particular
staff  elements as required to accomplish the unit's
mission


Now it says you can expand to accomplish the units mission. Since we have Sr's on Exec. staff, could you not place in XO over them?
It makes sense that you can expand to have an XO to accomplish the units mission.

Except there's no "XO" staff element to expand...it doesn't exist in the senior organization.

[EMT-83]

Advisor to Commander, CC assigns duties consistent with XO. It's worked for us for many years.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that I am in favor of having an XO position for composite squadrons, but don't believe that there is enough wiggle room in 20-1 to do it right now. 

[Private Investigator]

The Commander has two deputys and one XO.

Uh, just how is this possible given the mandated organization charts we have that have no allowance for an XO?

Mandated? I've only ever seen them as strong suggestions. Two of the units I've been have modified the structure, due to needs, and the inspectors have never even blinked.

Most Inspectors let you "rationalize" anything. It does not make it right. i.e. Squadrons with "Commander Emeritus", Chief of Staff and a Deputy Chief of Staff? Advisor to the Commander? Especially if it is the Commander's spouse and that person has never been a Commander in CAP.

[Private Investigator]

Advisor to Commander, CC assigns duties consistent with XO. It's worked for us for many years.

At the Wing level yes. At the Squadron level it does not make sense for an "Advisor to the Commander". That is why I have a CDs, CDC, Admin Officer, Pers Ofcr, Finance Ofcr, Supply Ofcr, etc,etc, AKA "Staff".

In some Squadrons you may have several former Squadron and/or Group Commanders who are on the Staff and are team players. Other Squadrons the former Commanders want to have a title and/or prestige and are not content with just being one of the guys. JMHO   

[SARDOC]

Advisor to the Commander in my squadron is used for Former Unit Commanders who just go burnt out and aren't participating at a level enough to hold a staff position.  Keeping the two that I have on my roles has been very helpful because both have much more time back in CAP then I do...so I use them as Advisor's Not XO's

I also see a role for an XO but even with the 80+ members in my squadron, it's easily managed by the CDC and CDS without any problems.

[Eclipse]

Advisor to the Commander in my squadron is used for Former Unit Commanders who just go burnt out and aren't participating at a level enough to hold a staff position.  Keeping the two that I have on my roles has been very helpful because both have much more time back in CAP then I do...so I use them as Advisor's Not XO's

Why is it necessary for a former CC to have a pretend staff job to continue to provide assistance and mentorship?
I'm not even assigned to the units where I was a CC and am able to provide help (when asked), without a title.

In my experience, most "advisers to the commander" are members who want authority with no responsibility, or for some reason aren't
allowed to take responsibility because of past drama.

[SARDOC]

Advisor to the Commander in my squadron is used for Former Unit Commanders who just go burnt out and aren't participating at a level enough to hold a staff position.  Keeping the two that I have on my roles has been very helpful because both have much more time back in CAP then I do...so I use them as Advisor's Not XO's

Why is it necessary for a former CC to have a pretend staff job to continue to provide assistance and mentorship?
I'm not even assigned to the units where I was a CC and am able to provide help (when asked), without a title.

In my experience, most "advisers to the commander" are members who want authority with no responsibility, or for some reason aren't
allowed to take responsibility because of past drama.

It's not necessary, but then again most staff positions aren't necessary.  I assign personnel into positions that I deem fit for the good order and operations of my unit.  It works out very well and while one of them is currently on deployment it seems to suit him very well.  There is no Authority associated with the position, at least in my unit.

[Private Investigator]

Advisor to the Commander in my squadron is used for Former Unit Commanders who just go burnt out and aren't participating at a level enough to hold a staff position.  Keeping the two that I have on my roles has been very helpful because both have much more time back in CAP then I do...so I use them as Advisor's Not XO's

Why is it necessary for a former CC to have a pretend staff job to continue to provide assistance and mentorship?
I'm not even assigned to the units where I was a CC and am able to provide help (when asked), without a title.

In my experience, most "advisers to the commander" are members who want authority with no responsibility, or for some reason aren't
allowed to take responsibility because of past drama.

I concur   :clap:

[docbiochem33]

Both positions are equal and no one holds authority over the other unless the CC sets it up that way. 

[Camas]

Advisor to Commander, CC assigns duties consistent with XO. It's worked for us for many years.

E-services allows for appointments as advisers but these positions aren't listed in CAPR 20-1 so whey are we even using them? I would think not. JMHO.