going above and beyond with my 24 hour pack

Started by swya, February 18, 2007, 06:05:08 AM

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davedove

Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:

Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification?  What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?

Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader. 



I guess you could say that they are separate but equal.  The pure UDF is more driving around till you find the ELT, whereas Ground Team is walking through the woods until you find the target.  Of course, nothing is pure and there is a lot of overlap.

For instance, last weekend we had a Wing SAREX.  Our squadron and another were tasked to track down an ELT signal.  It started out to be UDF work, but we soon found we had to do a lot of work in the woods, which is where the target wound up being located.

In my squadron, we often wind up teaching both at the same time.  Of course, you still need separate mission credits.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

floridacyclist

While GTM3 might seem more capable in some ways (if you go in the woods or spend the night out, you don't do it as a UDF member, or at least not by the regs) , one area that UDF has the edge is that if I recall correctly (and I'm on too slow of a connection today to want to look it up - I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) a UDF member can lead a UDF team - the team leader of a UDF team must be GTL or UDF. If you look at the UDF SQTR, there are quite a few items from GTL on there.

This brings up the interesting possibility of a 2-cadet UDF team, possibly not doable due to CP or a cadet actually being in charge of a pair of UDF(t) SMs.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

Psicorp

Quote from: davedove on March 29, 2007, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:

Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification?  What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?

Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader. 



I guess you could say that they are separate but equal.  The pure UDF is more driving around till you find the ELT, whereas Ground Team is walking through the woods until you find the target.  Of course, nothing is pure and there is a lot of overlap.

For instance, last weekend we had a Wing SAREX.  Our squadron and another were tasked to track down an ELT signal.  It started out to be UDF work, but we soon found we had to do a lot of work in the woods, which is where the target wound up being located.

In my squadron, we often wind up teaching both at the same time.  Of course, you still need separate mission credits.


So you can't get mission credit for both UDF and GTM simultaneously or during the same mission? 
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

floridacyclist

Only if you ran 2 sorties, one as a UDF member and one as a GTM.

Somewhere in the regs I saw a chart of what constitutes a "sortie" (1 mission credit) for the various specialties....claiming simultaneous UDF and GTM for the same sortie would be like claiming 2 UDF or 2 GTM for only 1 sortie.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

davedove

Quote from: floridacyclist on March 29, 2007, 06:29:48 PM
Only if you ran 2 sorties, one as a UDF member and one as a GTM.

Somewhere in the regs I saw a chart of what constitutes a "sortie" (1 mission credit) for the various specialties....claiming simultaneous UDF and GTM for the same sortie would be like claiming 2 UDF or 2 GTM for only 1 sortie.

Right, it has to be different sorties, but can be the same mission.  At the SAREX this weekend, my squadron did it's first sortie in tracking down the ELT.  We stopped for lunch, then did a different sortie to a couple of airports.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

SarDragon

According to CAPR 60-3, Attach 4, Sortie Equivalency for GTM(n) and UDF are the same. I'm not sure that make total sense, but who am I?

Attach 5 says that only a GTL or UDF can supervise a UDFT, and a UDFT can only supervise a UDFT. That one makes sense.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SAR-EMT1

Correct me if I'm wrong... but as I recall a prerequisite for GT is UDF, plus a GT can RON, a UDFT  cannot. Thus Id say GT trumps UDF.
- just my two cents

P.S. - If you are a bling happy cadet:  UDF members dont get anything for a uniform. Ground Team members get a shiny piece of bling.  ;D

Cadet:  :o!!!BLING!!! :o
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Al Sayre

UDF is not a prereq. for GT,  and you do get a patch.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

DNall

GES patch, you get it for any other specialty including MSA or MRO.

If I'm not mistaken.... Log your sorties as GT rather than UDF & they are backwards compatible. I had all my qual's drop & had to requal. So, couple missions, demonstrate the tasks from UDF to GTM1/GTL, bang they're all back in force. Actually it was a remote IC over cell phone, so I GBD'd it too with his understanding of what I was doing & my past experience. Handful of missions & I'm good again till 2010.

ZigZag911

Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:

Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification?  What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?

Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader. 

The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.

Psicorp

Quote from: SarDragon on March 30, 2007, 07:43:43 AM
According to CAPR 60-3, Attach 4, Sortie Equivalency for GTM(n) and UDF are the same. I'm not sure that make total sense, but who am I?

Attach 5 says that only a GTL or UDF can supervise a UDFT, and a UDFT can only supervise a UDFT. That one makes sense.

That was the chart I was looking for, thank you sir.  The Sortie Equivalency Chart says:

"Personnel serving in certain duty positions on training or actual missions may be given credit for participation in other areas towards renewal of their specialty qualifications. The following chart outlines the specialties that may be accepted as equivalent for renewal of specialty qualifications"

So it's for renewal only, not for initial.   
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Psicorp

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 30, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on March 29, 2007, 01:42:21 PM
Okay, silly newbie ground team person question:

Does GTM3 trump UDF qualification?  What I mean is, can a GTM3 go out on UDF missions or is UDF a totally seperate and unique specialty?

Back when I did GT stuff there wasn't levels or UDF, it was just Ground Team and Ground Team Leader. 

The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.

The leadership here seemed adamant that everyone needed to get UDF qualified first and I kept thinking the whole time, if we're going to spend a weekend doing training, why not go for the biggest bang for your buck and go for GTM3.   We looked at the GTM3 SQTR this past week and I think only two tasks carry over from UDF to GTM3...which seems odd.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

DNall

It's not that big a deal. You can easily fit GTM3 & UDF into the same wknd. You could even train from GES to GTM2 in one wknd if you wrok hard & fast. GTM1 is a bit more time consuming, mainly to get the extra sorties in. GTL by that point is pretty well done give or take a couple tasks. It really is the experience factor that slows you down (just like TIG versus flying thru the PD).


sardak

Quote from: Psicorp on March 30, 2007, 05:57:18 PM
That was the chart I was looking for, thank you sir.  The Sortie Equivalency Chart says:

"Personnel serving in certain duty positions on training or actual missions may be given credit for participation in other areas towards renewal of their specialty qualifications. The following chart outlines the specialties that may be accepted as equivalent for renewal of specialty qualifications"

So it's for renewal only, not for initial.   

Here is for the initial certification, CAPR 60-3, para. 2.3:
Once familiarization and preparatory training is completed, trainees must complete advanced training and participate satisfactorily in two missions before a CAPF 101 is approved and a member is considered "Qualified." Advanced training covers the remainder of the tasks required for specialty qualification. On actual missions, it is expected that these tasks could be accomplished by the trainee's supervisor or other fully trained members if they became critical. Because of this, trainees are allowed to learn these "on the job."
These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be Air Force assigned or approved, or be completed after advanced training. These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.
**************
As for UDF/GTM3, neither is a prerequisite for the other, and most of the tasks for each are different (there is some overlap), so getting one doesn't qualify a person in the other.   But, as DNall said, getting GTM3 and UDF in a weekend is not difficult.

It is interesting and contradictory, that the sortie equivalency chart shows participation as any level GTM gives UDF renewal credit, and UDF participation gives renewal credit for any GTM level.   The tasks are different between them.  Some UDF tasks aren't covered by any GTM level, and some GTM tasks aren't covered by UDF.

I've attached a matrix showing which tasks are required for which GTM/GTL/UDF rating according to the current SQTRs.

Mike

floridacyclist

#34
Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 30, 2007, 05:53:38 PM
The explanation I got from the wing ES gurus is that UDF training actually constitutes the first part of the GTM curriculum. So a qualified GYM3 would, by that measure, automatically qualify for UDF.

Actually, there are quite a few tasks on UDF which are found elsewhere only on GTL, not any of the GTM SQTRs....which explains why a UDF person can lead a UDF team and a GTM can't. If you look at the charts, UDF has a few of the basic GTM tasks and a few of the basic GTL tasks.

At the same time, the UDF team is not considered qualified to go deep in the woods or be self-sufficient for any length of time.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org