Civilian Population Confusion with CAP Members Wear of Military Field Uniforms

[RogueLeader]

[sarcasm]Wait a moment. WE ARE NOT THE MILITARY!!! WE ARE JUST CIVILIANS!!!  No wonder why we can't wear uniforms correctly.  We can't recognise our own uniforms. How could we have all been so blind???  IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!! We all owe RM a debt of gratitude for his infinite wisdom to all of us wanna bees. [/sarcasm]

From a has been.

[resqccemt]

Both the US Public Health Service and NOAA Corps wear uniforms that are similar to the US Navy... I think CAP should just stick to Something and be proud of its traditions based on the Army Air Corps of WWII and the Air Force.... It seems that there is a lot of uproar over uniforms and what exactly is the mission of CAP....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You....I just had a thought......CAP is an older organisation then the USAF, most Paramedic orgs, and most police departments.

ERGO.........all you guys get out of OUR uniforms....we were here first!  And we want you to stop confusing the public by wearing clothing too close to ours!

I sometimes tell people that CAP is the Auxiliary of the USAF, but that we've been around longer than the USAF.

That usually gets a perplexed look or two, but then I do explain my statement.

Both the US Public Health Service and NOAA Corps wear uniforms that are similar to the US Navy... I think CAP should just stick to Something and be proud of its traditions based on the Army Air Corps of WWII and the Air Force.... It seems that there is a lot of uproar over uniforms and what exactly is the mission of CAP....

And they both look a heck of a lot closer to the Navy than we do to the Air Force, while their connection to the Navy is slim to none.

Not to mention that the few states with SDF Air units wear the AF uniform with much, much fewer "marks of distinction" than we do (usually only a different nameplate and/or collar brass) and USAF has no problem with it (and they could, after all, it is their uniform).

In fact, the connection to the military in general is slim for NOAA Corps, but more so for the USPHS, as they provide medical care for the USCG.  They are uniformed services, but not armed forces.


USPHS uniforms

However, NOAA is in the process of redoing their uniforms to be more in line with the new Army Blue Service Dress.
http://www.corpscpc.noaa.gov/perservices/new_uniform_change.html

I think we've been in this tizzy over uniforms ever since the berry boards were imposed, which was punishing the many for the actions of a few.

Some say that we should be content with the status quo, others hearken back to when we did look more like the AF, and others want us out of the AF uniforms entirely.

And, unfortunately, those who follow the line of thinking of "pick something and stick with it" usually tend to be in group 3.

[Flying Pig]

Both the US Public Health Service and NOAA Corps wear uniforms that are similar to the US Navy... I think CAP should just stick to Something and be proud of its traditions based on the Army Air Corps of WWII and the Air Force.... It seems that there is a lot of uproar over uniforms and what exactly is the mission of CAP....

As long as civilians dont start confusing CAP with NOAA or the PHS.....that would be the final straw that broke the camels back!

[RADIOMAN015]

Well more research confirms that the Orange safety vests do cover both the CAP Tape and the name tape on both BDU's & Blue BDU's.

Additionally, I'm not sure that with the new ANSI 2 type vests that the CAP Emergency Services patch can fit on the high chest area without going across the reflective material.

Likely the best solution is to remove all rank from the BDU/Blue BDU headgear and place the CAP Emergency Services patch at that location.

Currently wearing the safety vest over either field uniform obstructs the identification that we are Civil Air Patrol members.  Since AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4, requires "distinctiveness" that is obstructed by a safety vest, the hat patch seems to be IMHO the best way to comply with the AF requirement.
RM   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think our huge wing patches do just fine for that. Not to mention when most civilian population (as you put it) would see us out and about town, we are rather close to a CAP vehicle, so the large CAP command patch should take care of that.

I don't see your issue with everything CAP does with uniforms. Is it because you were AD? If so, I still don't understand it, I was AD, and I think the uniforms are a necessary part of our organization. I know many other prior service feel the same way, so that shouldn't be it. So I am at a loss for what the problem could be. Please enlighten us, or just stop it.

[Eclipse]

The AFI has absolutely nothing to do with distinctiveness in the sense you're trying to use it.

[RADIOMAN015]

I think our huge wing patches do just fine for that. Not to mention when most civilian population (as you put it) would see us out and about town, we are rather close to a CAP vehicle, so the large CAP command patch should take care of that.

I don't see your issue with everything CAP does with uniforms. Is it because you were AD? If so, I still don't understand it, I was AD, and I think the uniforms are a necessary part of our organization. I know many other prior service feel the same way, so that shouldn't be it. So I am at a loss for what the problem could be. Please enlighten us, or just stop it.

I have nothing against CAP members wearing military type field uniforms.  On the other hand from a PAO marketing perceptive I would hope that we could have CIVIL AIR PATROL easily seen and displayed.  Right now with the safety vest worn it blocks anything that says we are CAP.  I do agree with you there's a wing patch, but that is on the side of uniform.  When you are looking at someone directly or they are approaching there's really no ID as to the organization affiliation.    The vests that Vanguard sells with the CIVIL AIR PATROL (name & command logo) on the bottom of the vest, are really expensive.  I don't want to see proposed fixes cost the membership a lot of money, thus the Emergency Services Patch on the headgear seems cost effective and is already authorized for wear on both BDU/Blue BDU's uniforms.

As far as the vehicles go, surely that is a very good identification BUT in my specific example given that started this thread, the ground team was well away from the vehicle.     

Now as far as everyone getting into only one organizational field type uniform, I think the marketing people under the entire branding concept planning would like to see that.   However, the realities of this organization, both historically and the current psyche of many members will likely prevent this
RM     

[blackrain]

You....I just had a thought......CAP is an older organisation then the USAF, most Paramedic orgs, and most police departments.

ERGO.........all you guys get out of OUR uniforms....we were here first!  And we want you to stop confusing the public by wearing clothing too close to ours!

Ok you owe me a new laptop after my tea just went over it lol...

Was that "tea" from Long Island? I was actually asked not long ago if I was a Cop while wearing the blue flight suit. Not sure if it was the uniform or the box of donuts in front of me.  Seriously though, they thought I was a Cop. The downside could be if a truly bad guy thought that.

[Eclipse]

So now your entire concern is marketing?

Pick an opinion and go with it.

[s.imbriale]

Both the US Public Health Service and NOAA Corps wear uniforms that are similar to the US Navy... I think CAP should just stick to Something and be proud of its traditions based on the Army Air Corps of WWII and the Air Force.... It seems that there is a lot of uproar over uniforms and what exactly is the mission of CAP....

As long as civilians dont start confusing CAP with NOAA or the PHS.....that would be the final straw that broke the camels back!

What do you mean by that?

[blackrain]

So now your entire concern is marketing?

Pick an opinion and go with it.

I know nothing is risk free. I was just pointing out a potential issue.

If someone asks I just explain what CAP is and the difference between CAP and the military. I've had to actually clarify to people who've seen and worked with me in my military uniform on one day and then seen me in a CAP uniform on another.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

RM,

You have stated in many other threads you dislike of CAP wearing military style uniforms. You consistently refer to those of us who wear the USAF style uniforms as wannabes. It has got to be more than just a marketing/PAO issue. If it were just marketing/PAO issues, you wouldn't be slamming those of us who wear the uniforms so consistently, yu would be trying to find a way to make marketing and PAO work easier. What is your big issue really? Have you dealt with too many Patriot Act violators? What is the disdain?

[ol'fido]

Well more research confirms that the Orange safety vests do cover both the CAP Tape and the name tape on both BDU's & Blue BDU's.

Additionally, I'm not sure that with the new ANSI 2 type vests that the CAP Emergency Services patch can fit on the high chest area without going across the reflective material.

Likely the best solution is to remove all rank from the BDU/Blue BDU headgear and place the CAP Emergency Services patch at that location.

Currently wearing the safety vest over either field uniform obstructs the identification that we are Civil Air Patrol members.  Since AFI 10-2701 para 1.3.4, requires "distinctiveness" that is obstructed by a safety vest, the hat patch seems to be IMHO the best way to comply with the AF requirement.
RM   

"Well more research confirms that the Orange safety vests do cover both the CAP Tape and the name tape on both BDU's & Blue BDU's."

Well, duhh.

[Eclipse]

So now your entire concern is marketing?

Pick an opinion and go with it.

I know nothing is risk free. I was just pointing out a potential issue.

I was not responding to you, you're in the crossfire.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't see your issue with everything CAP does with uniforms. Is it because you were AD? If so, I still don't understand it, I was AD, and I think the uniforms are a necessary part of our organization. I know many other prior service feel the same way, so that shouldn't be it. So I am at a loss for what the problem could be. Please enlighten us, or just stop it.

I was ANG, and I don't have an issue with it...as is commonly known to the habitues of this board, I would like to see a return to the pre-berry boards days, rather than increasingly "grey/corporate."  Whether that will happen or not is another matter.

[resqccemt]

I would agree that going back tothe pre berry era...embrace the USAFtradition of CAP.

[bflynn]

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it.

Easy to say, but a pretty high standard to attain.

Yes.  It is a high standard.

Do you aspire to the high standard or some lesser one?

[bflynn]

I have nothing against CAP members wearing military type field uniforms. 

I agree that it would be good for CAP to not be confused with the military.  We are a distinctive organization and we deserve to claim our accolades and our failures distinctively from other organizations.

[Private Investigator]

The appropriate CAP uniform is plenty distinctive. When Im working I fly a Helicopter that says ------ county sheriff in big vold letters and a flight suit with a full color badge patch with the department name and green and gold full color shoulder patches that say ------- county sheriff.  I cant count the number of times people have asked me " what department are you with?".  And these are other pilots at airports I land at.  Because we wear green flight suits, Ive also been asked how long Ive been in the Army Guard. Yes....by other pilots as Im standing there with my gun belt.....and a ball cap that says "Sheriffs Air Support" in big gold letters.   It actually happens a lot.

You can only do so much.

+1  that is so true.

When I was a policeman the general population knew you were a generic policeman. Only criminals would notice the difference between LAPD and Culver City Police or Highway Patrolman and a Deputy Sheriff.