Photo ID & NIMS

arajca · February 09, 2007, 05:33:31 AM

I think the standards are pretty well set. If the law enforcement and fire fighting communities haven't been able to affect much change, the volunteer SAR community doesn't stand a chance. The main tweaking you'll probably see is making the requirements non-propriatory, i.e mandating one organization's certifications vs. allowing any org. to certify the standards have been met.

DNall · February 09, 2007, 05:58:17 AM

^ I think that's proabbly right.

The cards in question are standardized with a pretty serious chip in them that works with some advanced software & such. Local agencies wouldn't be issuing these things, it'd be a fairly secure operation from a handful of agencies. Probably all federal agencies IDs will contain the necessary data in the right format, & that includes CAC. Then either FEMA or who they delegate to (probably one state office) would do the rest. It's a touch pricey too.

afgeo4 · February 09, 2007, 08:08:44 PM

What's wrong with having a CAC-looking card that has no chip or magstripe on it?

DNall · February 10, 2007, 03:28:48 AM

Well AF says it's a security risk. This particular standard says all emergency responders must eventually have a card standardized to this particular format that has some specialized NIMS info a chip. I don't know if CAC or certain other smartcard IDs would work & be able to add this NIMS info or not. I don't know that FEMA has figured that out yet, I think that may be 2008/9. Right now is still getting everyone set to typed resources & understanding the credentialing standards. A card this way or that in the midst of all the craziness everyone's been thru seems like a small deal.

Nick · February 10, 2007, 03:59:14 AM

I really don't buy the whole security risk thing. It's a portrait oriented PVC card with a photo in the top left corner. How unoriginal is that? If you don't use the same font, text positioning, and graphics as a CAC... it's not a CAC.

DNall · February 10, 2007, 04:29:37 AM

I got no problem with your logic, but apparently the AF does. Maybe they think that beret restricts blood flow to brain/eyes & you can't tell this person isn't in the AF. Hell I don't know, The only Air Staff I'll ever be on is going to have the word "hockey" in between. FEMA says FIPS-201 SmartCards, AF is going to have to get over it & we all come to an understanding.

lordmonar · February 10, 2007, 05:55:17 AM

Quote from: DNall on February 10, 2007, 04:29:37 AM
I got no problem with your logic, but apparently the AF does. Maybe they think that beret restricts blood flow to brain/eyes & you can't tell this person isn't in the AF. Hell I don't know, The only Air Staff I'll ever be on is going to have the word "hockey" in between. FEMA says FIPS-201 SmartCards, AF is going to have to get over it & we all come to an understanding.

No...the USAF will not have to get over...FEMA will have to provide if they require it.

From the USAF's point of veiw it will be a non-issue....they don't require the photo ID as it is....CAP provides them to assist members who have trouble establishing their bone fides with the standard CAP ID...that is all. The USAF does not want to issue CAP members CAC cards....good for them....let's get over and move on. If FEMA requires some sort of CAC card for all emegency respoinders, they will have to set up a way to issue them out. Because I know not everyone is going to be able to afford the costs.

DNall · February 10, 2007, 07:09:16 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on February 10, 2007, 05:55:17 AM
From the USAF's point of veiw it will be a non-issue....they don't require the photo ID as it is....CAP provides them to assist members who have trouble establishing their bone fides with the standard CAP ID...that is all. The USAF does not want to issue CAP members CAC cards....good for them....let's get over and move on. If FEMA requires some sort of CAC card for all emegency respoinders, they will have to set up a way to issue them out. Because I know not everyone is going to be able to afford the costs.

That's the past, we're discussing the future now. DHS will require this, probably in the 08/09 timeframe but it could be sooner, and it's based on a presidential directive and a political issue that ahs lots of support in Congress. Stronger than the AF is what I'm saying.

I understand that FEMA is potentially the issuing agency, as could be any number of others they designate (state EMA or AF being the prime contenders). The problem is these are designed to replace local agency IDs; they would be issued to you as a CAP member, stating CAP as your agency on the card, issued to you based on your ES quals, and required of you to perform missions. That functionally makes it an official ID over which AF has jurisdiction. Therefore, AF has to accept what DHS is saying or they have to bring us under the DoD system. I don't care which it is, but they have to work it out. Ultimately I think AF will clean it up nicely, but I think they'll be shocked right off the bat.

lordmonar · February 10, 2007, 07:50:30 AM

Quote from: DNall on February 10, 2007, 07:09:16 AMThe problem is these are designed to replace local agency IDs; they would be issued to you as a CAP member, stating CAP as your agency on the card, issued to you based on your ES quals, and required of you to perform missions.

Replacement? I highly doubt that. They may be required to prove your FEMA credintials...but they are not going to replace your local agency Identification. There is no way they could ever make that stick! They may replace our 101 cards...simply because they serve the same purpose...but they will not replace out CAP ID..because not everyone in CAP takes part in ES....why would FEMA issue a card to someone who does just AE or CP stuff? A Fire Department secratary does not need a FEMA card if he is not part of the incedent response team. A Boy Scout does not need the FEMA card only those members of an SAR Explorer post.

I thing you are going way overboard on this ID issue. Sure FEMA may require us to carry a card that they can use to verifty our training status and other inportant data. But that does not mean anything to the CAP Photo ID.

As far as DHS and DoD butting heads....guess who is going to win that one?

That functionally makes it an official ID over which AF has jurisdiction. Therefore, AF has to accept what DHS is saying or they have to bring us under the DoD system. I don't care which it is, but they have to work it out. Ultimately I think AF will clean it up nicely, but I think they'll be shocked right off the bat.
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DNall · February 10, 2007, 08:04:35 AM

There's no point to another photo ID. This one would ID you as being a CAP member. The other one is meaningless internally & externally, this one is an offical federal photo ID. I don't see that anyone not involved in ES really needs one, certainly not enough that it's economically feasable.

The cards, as I understand it, are designed to replace local agency IDs, and the secretary would get one too. It may not have a lot of info on it, but she'd get one to ID her as an employee of a legit response agency, and it'd be paid for at least initially by DHS grant money.

This isn't DHS versus DoD. It's Congress & President agreeing on an issue that was big after 9/11 & still is off the commission list, which agency fails to follow that order?

RiverAux · February 11, 2007, 01:52:02 AM

I think you're nuts if you think local agencies will stop issuing their own ids in favor of a fedeal id. They are not going to wait around for months for the feds to send a card leaving their own employee without any identification.

I think lordm is right about this. This will be an additional card to be used for ES work by ES workers in multi-agency environments. Our non-ES folks will not get them because they won't have any ES quals, so they will still need a CAP id. It could replace our 101 cards potentially, but thats it.

DNall · February 11, 2007, 02:02:18 AM

We'll see. The 9/11 commission & congress were very clear that they wanted anyone that could concievablly be in an emergency response center or trusted with a case of water to have one of these IDs. Hell at one point if you recall they were going to require state driver's licenses to meet these standards, but that didn't fly, this will.

lordmonar · February 11, 2007, 04:18:07 AM

Quote from: DNall on February 11, 2007, 02:02:18 AM
We'll see. The 9/11 commission & congress were very clear that they wanted anyone that could concievablly be in an emergency response center or trusted with a case of water to have one of these IDs. Hell at one point if you recall they were going to require state driver's licenses to meet these standards, but that didn't fly, this will.

And the next time the Missippi starts flooding...FEMA is really going to turning away people who are volunteering for sand-bag detail? Again...I understand where your point of view is coming from.....but in reality....on desaster day.....no one is going to care if you have finished ICS-100 before they hand you a shovel and a box of sand bags.

RiverAux · February 11, 2007, 04:28:33 AM

However, we're not the average guy off the street who might just show up at that levee. With CAP we need orders to go down to that levee and those orders aren't going to be cut if we don't meet the official qualifications for sandbagging or whatever the mission might be.

DNall · February 11, 2007, 05:31:48 AM

What the hell does that matter? Are there going tobe disasters where they are overwhelmed & have to take any warm body off the street for idiot detail? Sure, and there are provisions for how to do that, but it has nothing to do with CAP.

We're talking about being on a national register of teams that doesn't distinguish between you & paid full-time professional. It jsut says WSAR tpe III & your cost are X, logistics footprint is Y, & you're located Z miles from the work. Everything else is standardized so they don't care. Someone trained by them has sworn to your quals & taken legal responsibility if they whipped it thru.

The fact is, people that think they're qual'd coming into the AO either on their own or when theri agency jumps the gun, but who really can't stack up w/ profssionals &/or aren't needed, do much more harm then good.

There's also a big part of this that's about fraud, waste, & security. When they credential you it means someone's taking legal responsibility for you & you can't get in the ICP w/ a card you made at Kinkos & sign for a truck load of generators. If you do that with federal ID then you'll either go to jail or your agency will be held responsile, unless you had authorization & paperwork. No one gets anything w/o one of those cards though.

You guys very much know the differnce. Don't nit pick at unrelated things you know have nothing to do with CAP or this process.

RiverAux · February 11, 2007, 05:30:28 PM

Dnall, were you talking to me or lordm there? I think I was more or less supporting your position this time.

DNall · February 11, 2007, 06:46:13 PM

LM I think in that one, reinforced yours.

lordmonar · February 11, 2007, 08:01:13 PM

I understand your point DNall....I'm just think that you are exaggerating the situation. When FEMA gets the ID card system and the accreditation system up and running...CAP will comply. I also think that there will be a very long grace period for implementation....and I also think that there will be many, many loop holes in the directives that will allows IC's to just ignore it.

The nature of incidents is that you never know what you are going to get. You of course plan for the expected...but the you leave yourself open to deal with all the rest.

DNall · February 11, 2007, 09:53:06 PM

You may be getting an impression from me that's more unreasonable than I really am on this or in general for that matter. I've been hip deep in big time disasters before with CAP, from a govt perspective, and as an EOC member. I know very well that great plans become highly fluid on first contact with the enemy.

Far as implementation, of course there will be a phase in period. The problem is that CAP is getting such a late start already, and the nature of our volunteer org with members you can't force to go out & get things done in a timely manner means it takes longer for us to adapt; yet the timelines are written for paid emergency responders that get paid to zip right out & do it on the agency dime.

Plus there's the theoretical complication that AF controls photo IDs used within CAP, and when considering a valid federal ID that allows a degree of federal facility access in & out of disaster situations, they're sure as hell going to want to have their say in the process & it seems advisable to work with them early to make sure they understand the situation & are prepared to act or allow us to act appropriately when the time comes. A little heads up & prelim discussion ya know.

Considering these issues, I do believe this transition will be challenging for CAP & that we should be well prepared to pull the trigger at the first opportunity. That's what the initial question in the thread was about... this stuff looks to be on the horizon, what should CAP do to lay the groundwork so that when the time comes we can get transitioned at a pace that won't cause a gap in our ability to respond.

SAR-EMT1 · February 12, 2007, 08:16:40 AM

I think if you did some checking that you'd find out that many CAP types already have the 100 700 and 200.
And its NOT like they are hard, even if one does resort to taking them online.
If a memo went out from national telling us to get them ASAP, the 'ACTIVE' membership would have it within a months time.