Photo ID & NIMS

[DNall]

Ground rules: I don't want this to devolve into we need a CAC, or the new photo ID looks like crap. There's already several topics for that with a couple very good alternative designs. Take such conversation to those threads. This is a very narrow discussion of a related item, let's try to stick to it.

Topic:

http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/faq/rm.shtm
Q: What is the status of the credentialing initiative?

A: In Fy 2007, the NIC will facilitate the 5 existing discipline groups (EMS, SAR, Public Works, Incident Management and Fire/Hazmat), and 3 new groups (Law Enforcement, Health & Medical, and Animal Control).  Additional credentialing efforts are being supported by the NIC through technical consultation and advice to various groups.  This includes Association of State and Territorial Health Officials, Public Health, National Emergency Number Association (NENA)/Association of Public Safety Communications Officials (APCO), and the DHS Office of Grants and Training Target Capabilities List Working Groups.  Additionally, the DHS Science and Technology Directorate and the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) are working to establish a working group to extend the FIPS-201 SmartCard standard to address more than identity vetting by specifying the storage allocation of data features, data structures and essential information such as affiliations, qualifications etc. to ensure the various FIPS-201 implementations will be interoperable nationally. Finally the universal business processes for the credentialing system will be developed covering the selection of accrediting agencies, selection of persons to be credentialed, selection of level of badging persons required by discipline, and the authentication of issued cards.

This reinforces the push by FEMA to ensure individual qualifications & team typing standards are certified by an authroized (by them) agency, recorded on a smart card controlled by them, and no one gets access to missions, resources, facilities, or reimbursement w/o meeting these stadards. (links to resource typing & credentialing standards in other threads or on the FEMA site - not part of this discussion).

Question is simply what does CAP need to do vis-a-vie AF & FEMA to get this cleared up for our members in the furture, and is it worth investing further money in the current ID cards if they are going to be replaced soon by something official.

[RiverAux]

Hard to say what they mean here however I feel pretty confident is the feds are going to try to come up with a national card its going to be years before it is implemented so I don't see any big need to worry about it now. 

[DNall]

It's very far from new. These cards have been around for several years now. It's already the most widely used card standard out there. With FEMA money behind it & congressional pressure (remember the dems talking about getting the rest of the 9/11 commission recs into force)... I think that can do it in a couple years if they want, & I think they do. My point is if we get shut out of this at the begining it'll be near impossible to get in down the road when everyone comes to their senses. Hence, what should CAP do now to make sure we're compliant & working inside the system rather than acting like spoiled little children.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that they're going to have to be looking at getting this down to the level of county sherrif volunteer SAR teams and the like.  I anticipate a major paperwork shuffle across the country.  CAP is probably better off than most of the smaller groups as our stuff is in a nationwide database.  If they decided to change GTM3 to WSAR Tech 3 or whatever to get NIMS compliant, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to do. 

There is no evidence that CAP is really behind the curve on any of this NIMS stuff at the national level since 90% of it isn't actually set in stone yet.   Where I see problems is down at the state level where some states are farther ahead of some other states and will want to have CAP compliant before we, as a national organization, may have to be.  Given our very weird situation (part DoD which seems to be NIMS exempt, part corporation, but also partially beholden  to states for participation in ES missions) it might actually be hard to say where CAP fits.

[DNall]

I don't know if you're really grasping where NIMS, what's going on thre, or where CAP is on it, but that's not the case, and also not the conversation. We are required to fully comply with NIMS or not be involved in disaster response. Military personnel tasked with this stuff (mostly the national guard) are compliant. They also are tasked seperately in teh national response plan and bring a massive resource pool that can't be emulated. That's not nor will it ever be CAP.

Anyway, the focus of this is what do we have to do to resolve our ID card issues to come under the FEMA system & still be cool w/ AF.

[afgeo4]

What can we do?  Nothing.  We wait for FEMA to release their version of the CAC that will be mandatory for all first responders and then take the law on paper to the USAF and say "hey, we don't really have a choice in the matter anymore. We are only your auxiliary part-time, we do disaster relief full-time." The Air Force may control our credential when it comes to getting on bases, but they have no control of our Identification otherwise because we are a non-profit corporation chartered by the US Senate, not the Department of Defense. If another agency says we must be compliant, then we must be compliant. We'll just have to say ok to the FEMA issued (I don't really believe they will do this) ID card.

[lordmonar]

Dnall,

I think you are putting the cart before the horse again.....yes maybe, someday, FEMA will stop allowing non NIMS accredited assets from participating in FEDERAL DR activities (the only activities that FEMA controls)....but that is still many years away.  They still have not hashed out what the job qualifications are going to be, nor have they established who or what will be the national accreditation agency.

As for smart cards to document and record qualifitications....that will come in time I am sure....if/when FEMA ever mandates its use.

In the mean time....our CAP members need a picture ID that helps make our jobs today easier.

[DogCollar]

I think that this is going to happen sooner rather than later.  CAP can't afford to be lax about this.  CAP needs to have it's representitives working in partnership with other agencies doing this kind of work at every level.  Every community/region/state is mandated to have a disaster response plan on file with the feds.  These plans have been developed by a partnership between government agencies and private entities that are involved in disaster response.  I wonder how many of these local plans were developed with CAP at the table?  My guess is not many if any!

We are already late in getting to the table...the disaster response (which NIMS qualified folk will control from here on out) has changed since 9/11 and the hurricanes.  Our ES folk will need to be NIMS compliant and will need to have proof of their qualifications or they will be sent home.  Period. 

We need to be at the table with the other response agencies, and we need to be planning NOW for how we will prove that we are in compliance with NIMS, and how our members are qualified.

[Dragoon]

I don't know if you're really grasping where NIMS, what's going on thre, or where CAP is on it, but that's not the case, and also not the conversation. We are required to fully comply with NIMS or not be involved in disaster response. Military personnel tasked with this stuff (mostly the national guard) are compliant. They also are tasked seperately in teh national response plan and bring a massive resource pool that can't be emulated. That's not nor will it ever be CAP.

Anyway, the focus of this is what do we have to do to resolve our ID card issues to come under the FEMA system & still be cool w/ AF.

I'm not sure what you are saying above is true.  To begin with, CAP, through USAF, can always play the military card to come in, and therefore skip the whole NIMS thing.

Second, when things get bad, you take what you can get.  You don't let the building burn down because the only firefighters around don't have the right ID card!  Sure, they'll go to the NIMS registered folks first, but Katrina showed us that they run through those very quickly.

Thirdly, these things take years to implement. Wheels turn slowly and they change direction often.  If we try to get ahead of the curve, we run a very real risk of spending money and time on an obsolete policy that never comes to fruition.  When the regs are firm, we should follow them.  There's ALWAYS in implementation period after new mandatory policies come out.

In the end, though, I'm that if special ID cards are required, we'll be given them.  It will probably be a second card, completely seperate from the CAP ID card.

[DogCollar]

Dragoon--
In NIMS there will not be a military card too play in the Incident Command System.  Military, especially guard units maybe activated for the emergency, however, they will be taking direction from persons who are NIMS compliant, trained and qualified...most likely to be civilians.  And the days of just showing up and volunteering to help are quickly disappearing.  The Disaster Responders have learned two things from the most recent disasters...

1.  Keep politicians out of the disaster area

2.  Keep the untrained and unqualified far, far away from the disaster area.

Both one and two can do more damage and utililize more resources that could otherwise be directed by the ICS for response and recovery.  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[davedove]

1.  Keep politicians out of the disaster area

2.  Keep the untrained and unqualified far, far away from the disaster area.

Both one and two can do more damage and utililize more resources that could otherwise be directed by the ICS for response and recovery.  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

No doubt about the politicians.  But then, most things are better off without them.

Untrained civilians can be used for some portions of a response.  However, they are best used for rear area functions and a system must be in place to organize them.  It is important to keep them out of the way of the professional responders.  There was a big problem with this in New York after 9-11.

[DogCollar]

1.  Keep politicians out of the disaster area

2.  Keep the untrained and unqualified far, far away from the disaster area.

Both one and two can do more damage and utililize more resources that could otherwise be directed by the ICS for response and recovery.  Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

No doubt about the politicians.  But then, most things are better off without them.

Untrained civilians can be used for some portions of a response.  However, they are best used for rear area functions and a system must be in place to organize them.  It is important to keep them out of the way of the professional responders.  There was a big problem with this in New York after 9-11.

The best thing untrained civilians can do is donate money...I'm not making light of this...money makes the recovery happen!

NIMS will have a role for military personel, but unless they are NIMS trained and compliant it will not be in the disaster area. 

[DNall]

The best thing untrained civilians can do is donate money...I'm not making light of this...money makes the recovery happen!

NIMS will have a role for military personel, but unless they are NIMS trained and compliant it will not be in the disaster area. 

That's correct. There's some NG troops on here, ask them how many FEMA courses they've been required to do, and mostly on their own time at least the online ones. The AD & Res Army personnel that work directly with disasters are compliant, same for the AF side.

The deal with this is there's no money if you use unqualified people. The non-NIMS compliant (and therefore unqualified) teams cannot be reimbursed from federal funds. State/local using them cannot be reimbursed for that use, and may endanger all other reimbursement for having used them. Big hammer, therefore no chance unless you get compliant. The feds sometimes use non-compliant highly specialized federal military assets (transportation & logistics is about it, that includes C130s & helos), but it requires special permission on a case by case basis - we won't be getting that. They've been saying this for years & slowly doing the transition with ever tightening standards. Here they are telegraphing the moves they plan to make in the next 24months, and they've been very consistent about following thru on the last 5 years of telegraphed moves. I'd take them at their word.

Specific to this ID thing... from what I can tell they haven't made up their mind syet but it looks like it won't be only FEMA issuing IDs, maybe states, maybe other federal agencies. It'd be a list approved by FEMA. The key being some certified person has to swear to that agency that this individual has been trained internally & meets this list of quals, & here's their certs from external agencies on these others, now can I get them a card that says they are a WSAR-tech type III or whatever, & I accept legal liability if I'm a liar.

Now logistically, it seems like it might be appropriate for CAP to be one of those issuing agencies, considering the number of people we cover. If that's the case, then CAP needs to be getting much more involved in this process so they have standing when the time comes. OR, AF might be appropriate as the certified credentialing agency, and at that point they can verify our training & issue us smart cards that fit the standards. However it works out, AF has to approve any photo ID we get, and that means we they & FEMA needs to figure this all out. And oh by the way we need to take the qualification standards more seriously on the back of this move cause if the card is your ticket to ride & you aren't willing to do the training to earn it then you don't play. It takes time to transition & if we're too far behind it might shut us down abruptly for a year or two & that would be bad news.

[DogCollar]

DNall, you're absolutely correct.  And the federal dollars, as you say, will not be forth coming without NIMS qualifications.  I really think CAP is most likely behind the proverbial 8 Ball on this and we need to reposition and retrain to come into compliance.

[Dragoon]

First, I sincerely doubt that the military will be forced to play by these rules.  Simply put - if you want a military asset (and you almost always do), you take what they give you.  ESPECIALLY in an emergency.

In the eyes of the executuve branch, there's a big difference between "untrained volunteers" and "untrained military."  I've seen military units deployed to do everything from fight forest fires to build sandbag dams.  And they'll be called again, regardless of FEMA qualifications.

And that's CAP's "in."  Once the inevitable exception for the military becomes standard, CAP gets to play because it's the USAF Auxiliary by law (suddenly, that law becomes pretty useful).

Now, lack of compliance would effect CAP getting FEMA money if they tried to do anything without USAF cover - but that doesn't happen that often.

Our normal money to maintain our fleet doesn't come from FEMA.  And our reimbursement money comes through USAF, effectively getting USAF top cover and, dare I say it "laundering."

What we've heard is what FEMA wants to do.  Since so many other agencies are involved, we'll see what, in the end, they are allowed to do.  And what loopholes end up getting inserted to water down their intent into something more realistic.

[lordmonar]

The other side of the coin of course is.....if you need the asset....you need the asset.  FEMA needs someone to fly some DR photo recon....who are they going to call?  If CAP is not NIMS compliant, in the NG or the USAF is not NIMS compliant....do you just do with out your pictures?


This is not to say that I think we need to just blow off getting NIMS complaint....but that I think you are all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

When FEMA finallises the accrediation process and resource typing and the records managment process we (CAP) will change the way we train.  As it is now....there is not a whole lot we need to change.  We already do most of what they want use to do.  We could easilly field type III and type IV ground teams right now with support of an EMS service for the medic requirments.

[DogCollar]

Okay...we are talking about Apples and Oranges here.  You are, of course correct to say that if FEMA needs an asset, it doesn't matter if we are NIMS qualified or not.  But the point is NIMS mandates a command and response structure.  Unless you are NIMS qualified, you WILL NOT be a part of the Incident Command structure period!!  You may have all the command and leadership and know how in the world, but you won't be invited under the tent without a NIMS card. 

The people in the Incident Command structure will be assessing the needs for "assets."  If there is no one from CAP under the ICS tent, then other assets may be utilized before us.  It's just common sense that decision makers will go with who and what they are most comfortable with.  All I'm saying is that we need lots of members to be NIMS compliant...but our ES training is not yet there.

[Nick]

The Air Force may control our credential when it comes to getting on bases, but they have no control of our Identification otherwise because we are a non-profit corporation chartered by the US Senate, not the Department of Defense.

Read this. Page 8. Bottom.

[Hawk200]

First, I sincerely doubt that the military will be forced to play by these rules.  Simply put - if you want a military asset (and you almost always do), you take what they give you.  ESPECIALLY in an emergency.

Then why are there numerous military Homeland Security units that are operating under NIMS and using ICS? If military assets show up, and don't know what ICS or NIMS are, I can tell you what they'll be doing: sandbag detail.

In the eyes of the executuve branch, there's a big difference between "untrained volunteers" and "untrained military."  I've seen military units deployed to do everything from fight forest fires to build sandbag dams.  And they'll be called again, regardless of FEMA qualifications.

Building sandbag dams isn't exactly a complex idea. For military utilized to fight extended length forest fires, all of those people I know that have done it, got at least a week of training. They got trained though.

And that's CAP's "in."  Once the inevitable exception for the military becomes standard, CAP gets to play because it's the USAF Auxiliary by law (suddenly, that law becomes pretty useful).

Inevitable exception? I don't know where you got that idea, but I have serious doubts that would happen. Not to mention it would be the ultimate height of hypocrisy for CAP to play the  "We're a military auxiliary" card. You can't play both sides of the fence. Tends to ruin your giblets.

Our normal money to maintain our fleet doesn't come from FEMA.  And our reimbursement money comes through USAF, effectively getting USAF top cover and, dare I say it "laundering."

"Laundering" ? Just out of curiousity, have you ever been in the military? Cause some of the ideas you've put out don't seem to relate in any way to the military I was in.

What we've heard is what FEMA wants to do.  Since so many other agencies are involved, we'll see what, in the end, they are allowed to do.  And what loopholes end up getting inserted to water down their intent into something more realistic.

It seems like the Presidential Directives and National Response Plan are already in place. You wanna tell the President or the Secretary of DHS what you're going to allow them to do?

Funny, I actually am learning something in those ICS courses. Who would have guessed?

[DNall]

Read Page 8. Bottom.

Lil cut & paste for ya"

1.3.5. CAP ID Card. CAP members carry an ID card identifying them as members of the organization.
CAP ID cards must meet Air Force standards and are considered a uniform item subject to the same approval process as other parts of the CAP uniform. The CAP ID card must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces ID card that confusion will not occur. The CAP ID card will not allow access to government facilities or other agencies and is not a government identification card. CAP ID cards do not qualify for Federal Aviation Administration identification requirements concerning pilot certificate privileges. Each installation commander is responsible for determining the amount of access, if any, which will be afforded to CAP personnel.

It seems like the Presidential Directives and National Response Plan are already in place. You wanna tell the President or the Secretary of DHS what you're going to allow them to do?

That's the thing right there. NIMS & everything DHS is doing on this are executing an executive order backed up by congressional action on the money. As has been noted, the national guard is fully compliant. The AD & Res portions of the military that function within disater/ICS situations are compliant. It is true that if a specialized asset is needed that it'll be used regardless of compliance. That requires special permission, but here's the kicker. If you need photos & non-compliant CAP is here on the one hand that if you use them then FEMA can deny all funding to you for even the things you did right, or the National Guard is over here with a blackhawk that'll cost 5X as much and take longer cause they're busy, but it'll get paid for, well that means CAP never gets the call. And the bigger thing with that is it won't be a choice between two thing sitting on the flight line together, CAP won't be physically allowed in the airspace, even if they would like to use us.