So, can anyone answer why no military ribbons on CAP distinctive uniforms?

[bflynn]

I'm curious - I'm proud of what I did and I'd like to share it through the wear of ribbons.  But everyone just states that it's not allowed on corporate uniforms without giving a reason.

Ok, I get that.  It hurts a little because it's like you don't care, but I get it.

But the question is - Why?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You say you were in the Military. Did your leaders always explain why things weren't allowed?

The answer is just that. Military awards are not allowed on Non-AF uniforms. Why? No one bothered to tell us.

[bflynn]

No, they didn't explain things.  I don't see why that's relevant.

I don't understand and I'd feel better about being a volunteer if I did. 

[coudano]

in my opinion we shouldn't wear military ribbons on the CAP uniform (including the USAF style one) at all (and i don't)

however, the rules (one way or the other) should be consistent between both.
i shouldn't need separate ribbon rack for my white shirt and my blue shirt.

[billford1]

If a SM is only eligible for the aviator shirt I don't know why anyone should object if he wears his Military occupational badge. Is this really illegal in 39-1?  I only ask because I've seen people wear their Navy Dolphin Badge or something like it.

[PHall]

Because CAPM 39-1, The CAP Uniform Manual, says you can not wear military ribbons and/or badges on CAP Distinctive Uniforms.
(Ref: CAPM 39-1, Para 5-2 and 6-5.)

[bflynn]

Yes.

Why?

[RiverAux]

Because in order to get around the AF-mandated height-weight requirements for wear of AF-style uniforms we came up with our own distinctive version.  One of the ways they decided to keep the two uniform types separate was to only allow wear of military ribbons by those who meet the requirements to wear the AF-style uniform. 

Can I back that up with some reference?  Nope, no more than it is possible to back up explanations for most rules that have been around for the 10+ years for which national meeting minutes which offer explanations are available.

[Eclipse]

Can I back that up with some reference?  Nope, no more than it is possible to back up explanations for most rules that have been around for the 10+ years for which national meeting minutes which offer explanations are available.

And bearing in mind that previous to that, the corporate uniform consisted of the blazer nametag with no grade insignia epaulet sleeves, badges, or ribbons at all.

[Ed Bos]

Because the Air Force (and ostensibly the DoD) forbids it?

Ref AFI 36-2903, Para 1.4.9:

While in civilian attire. Do not mix or wear military unique uniform items with civilian clothes; for example, rank insignia, cap devices, badges, and other US or Air Force insignia, devices, buttons, etc.  Exception: Tie tacks and lapel pens are authorized when wearing business attire.

[bflynn]

Not to be argumentative, but why would an Air Force instruction apply to me?  I was never in the Air Force and I'm not now.  The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform, as far as they're concerned, it is civilian wear.  Nor does an AFI apply to a veteran who isn't in the military any more.

The Navy as a similar rule, but I'm also no longer in the Navy.  I wear my Navy ribbons and badges on my various veterans vests.  I've actually just added my CAP member ribbon to my rack on one of my vests.  So I wear mixed CAP and military ribbons on my civilian clothes now, just not CAP designated civilian clothes.  On the grey aviator shirt, my preference is to wear no ribbons or just not wear the uniform at all.

The only thing I've heard so far that makes any sense is that once upon a time someone decided they wanted CAP uniforms to be distinctive.

[davidsinn]

The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform,

They claim they do. Since they control the money we don't have a say in the matter.

What is with all the heartburn about wearing military decorations on CAP uniforms anyway? Do they affect your CAP duties in anyway? Does wearing them make you a better CAP member?

[Майор Хаткевич]

No, they didn't explain things.  I don't see why that's relevant.

Because as a para-military organization with roots in the Army Air Corps and US Air Force, CAP regulations are structured like the military. We tend to follow Air Force regulations, whether it makes sense to me or you? No one bothered to ask me when joining. Then there is the rocky uniform history of the last two decades, and NHQ statements that make it seem like the Air Force is VERY interested in how we look in our distinctive uniforms.

I don't understand and I'd feel better about being a volunteer if I did.

I can understand that. I even agree with it. The solution? Get "fit/clean shaven" for the Air Force uniform. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices. Earn CAP decorations that will tell others what you can and have done in CAP, or quit over the issue.

[Pylon]

Because the Air Force Instruction which controls the organization of Civil Air Patrol intimates that the Air Force leadership has very-specifically-authorized control over our organization's uniforms, among other things.  They've been granted the authority and enough influence to tell us what we can and cannot do with our uniforms.

[James Shaw]

I choose to look at it like this and it has worked for me:

I joined CAP to do CAP stufff and to participate in the organization. I wear CAP stuff on that uniform because CAP authorizes it.

I do not wear my AD stuff from the Navy or the Army on the CAP uniform, because I am not in the Navy or the Army, I am in CAP. This is a personal choice. As a disclaimer I did wear it when I first joined to a conference and felt kind of silly wearing my AD stuff for the Navy and Army on my CAP mess dress, so I stopped

I don't look at another members AD stuff and make a judgement on their CAP work or worth. They are not in the CAP to do that stuff. They are in CAP to do CAP stuff. I don't hold anything against someone who does wear their AD stuff on the authorized CAP uniform in which they can. That is their personal choice if they choose to do that. I do not agree however that they "system" is at fault for not allowing veterans and ad members to wear their non CAP stuff on their current CAP uniforms (that are not authorized).

I have 6 specialty tracks I am rated in. I only wear the "badge" for the rating I am currently assigned in.

If you earn CAP recognition then wear all the recognition you want (on the appropriate) uniform. If you have 3 ribbons then wear the 3 ribbons, if you have 3 rows of ribbons then wear 3 rows.

I wear the golf shirt most of the time now, so it doesn't matter to me as much.

[bflynn]

The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform,

They claim they do.

I've never heard that before.  Someone at the Air Force approves the CAP Distinctive Uniform? 

Does wearing them make you a better CAP member?

It makes me a prouder, happier and more energenic volunteer.  We're a volunteer organization, remember?  We depend on the energy of our volunteers to make things happen.  I think it's a point quite often lost in the culture.

So in the meantime my grey shirt hangs in the closet and I'll just wear the golf shirt...

[Eclipse]

Not to be argumentative, but why would an Air Force instruction apply to me?  I was never in the Air Force and I'm not now. 

See AFI 10-2701, which regulates the USAF / CAP relationship, including their authority over our uniforms.

The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform, as far as they're concerned, it is civilian wear. 

Yes, it does, and this has plenty of precedent in recent history.  The corporate combinations may include pieces of clothing
which are commercially produced, but worn as a uniform, it is specifically not "civilian dress".

Nor does an AFI apply to a veteran who isn't in the military any more.

Correct, however it does apply to anyone carrying a CAP ID card who want to continue to do so.

[Eclipse]

I've actually just added my CAP member ribbon to my rack on one of my vests.  So I wear mixed CAP and military ribbons on my civilian clothes now

CAP ribbons are not authorized for wear on civilian clothing.

[Eclipse]

It makes me a prouder, happier and more energenic volunteer. 

How does wearing a decoration from an unrelated service make you a happier volunteer?  The fact that members are allowed to wear
military decoration at all is a nice-to-have from the USAF, and the compromise is that they are not worn on corporate combos.

We're a volunteer organization, remember?  We depend on the energy of our volunteers to make things happen.  I think it's a point quite often lost in the culture.

Another point "lost in culture" is that "volunteer" doesn't mean "do whatever you want".

[bflynn]

. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices.

... quit over the issue.

Get fit or get out then....I've been trying, but it's not working.  If CAP only wants 180 lb clean cut guys, there goes 90% of my squadron....

Did you really just tell a volunteer to quit?  What would your CO think of that?

[bflynn]

How does wearing a decoration from an unrelated service make you a happier volunteer? 

Because it matters to me. 

Probably not enough to quit over, but definately enough not to wear that uniform over.

[Eclipse]

Did you really just tell a volunteer to quit?  What would your CO think of that?

Can't speak for his current one, but I can tell you what his recently former one would say.

"If the issue of not being allowed to wear decorations from another service on your uniform is causing you this much angst, then perhaps
you should take some time and consider if you really understand what CAP is about, and whether it is right for you..."

Also, in regards to your comment about people's responses to your question(s), this topic has been beat to death in several threads, you should have spent some time in the forums and added to those conversations (or not if they are locked).  It's frustrating when new members
come here to "tell us a question" about something which has no answer, is a matter of opinion, and has been asked / answered twelve times over. 

Then, when the response is not "light the torches and storm the gates", the response is we aren't receptive to "new ideas", etc.

[bflynn]

the response is we aren't receptive to "new ideas", etc.

Yes, well that is a part of the CAP culture.

It's ok, I'll wear the golf shirt or no ribbons at all if I wear my aviator shirt.  I'll just be a little less energetic and CAP will get a little less effort from me...

[lordmonar]

. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices.

... quit over the issue.

Get fit or get out then....I've been trying, but it's not working.  If CAP only wants 180 lb clean cut guys, there goes 90% of my squadron....

Did you really just tell a volunteer to quit?  What would your CO think of that?

I would think my CO would support me in up holding the CAP's Core Values and CAP regulations.

As Eclipse said....volunteer does not mean do what ever you feel like doing.

To answer your quesiton........when the introduced the aviator shirt, from the USAF's point of view it is civian clothing...so no military rank, badges or ribbons.  The USAF has control over our uniforms....all of them.  They don't lord it over us....but they do let their displesure known........AKA the CSU.

CAP wants everyone.  Hence the mutiple uniform options.

If you don't want to follow the rules and regulations....then as a volunteer you are free to leave.

[abdsp51]

Does wearing AD decs in CAP make one better probably not.  But for me if i hose to wear my AD stuuf it's a sense of accimplishment.  I have my CAP ribbons I can wear in conjunction with my AD stuff.  Will I wear both probably not, unless it's mess dress but I dont see that occasion happening for awhile.  For me it comes down to cost, its not worth the cost to wear both.

[davidsinn]

But for me if i hose to wear my AD stuuf it's a sense of accimplishment.

So I should get to wear my Silver Chicken on my CAP uniform then, right? I have a huge sense of accomplishment in earning that considering the hurdles I had to get past in addition to the normal requirements.

I think people should wear the awards that go with the current environment. You're wearing a CAP uniform so wear CAP awards. You wear an AD uniform then wear AD awards. I'm an Eagle Scout, I'll only wear that award in the appropriate venue.

[coudano]

. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices.

... quit over the issue.

Get fit or get out then....I've been trying, but it's not working.  If CAP only wants 180 lb clean cut guys, there goes 90% of my squadron....

Did you really just tell a volunteer to quit?  What would your CO think of that?

I'd tell a volunteer who was unable or unwilling to contribute to our here and now mission because of heartburn over some bling candy,  that their time and energy might be better spent in other pursuits.

CAP is not about showing off the awesome stuff you have done so people (including ones self) can think you are cool.

It's about promoting airpower, mentoring young adults, and providing a resource to meet emergencies at the local, state, and national level.

Eye on the ball.

[a2capt]

It's ok, I'll wear the golf shirt or no ribbons at all if I wear my aviator shirt.  I'll just be a little less energetic and CAP will get a little less effort from me...

I can just imagine a review board, "I'd do more if I could wear ribbons"..


Me, the certificate on the wall is great, the thank you from the cadet that looks forward to seeing their testing officer, or their coach, advisor, and driver for those whole Saturday Color Guard practices, the member that came back from a SAREX with a rating and was grateful for the advice given prior to, and help getting it all entered during and afterwards to earn a rating and be able to show it.


Best of all, because I've made a lot of friends in CAP, and we all stick together through thick or thin, and make it happen.

[bflynn]

I'd tell a volunteer who was unable or unwilling to contribute to our here and now mission because of heartburn over some bling candy,  that their time and energy might be better spent in other pursuits.

CAP is not about showing off the awesome stuff you have done so people (including ones self) can think you are cool.

It's about promoting airpower, mentoring young adults, and providing a resource to meet emergencies at the local, state, and national level.

You are correct, it isn't about medals and ribbons.  Which is why I've already said I've reached my conclusion that I'll wear a golf shirt or no ribbons at all.  But assuming that's true, I do wonder about the amount of hot emotion here over my question.

My reason for joining was to serve my community.  If I leave, it will be because I've lost hope that CAP can do that effectively. 

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

[abdsp51]

But for me if i hose to wear my AD stuuf it's a sense of accimplishment.

So I should get to wear my Silver Chicken on my CAP uniform then, right? I have a huge sense of accomplishment in earning that considering the hurdles I had to get past in addition to the normal requirements.

I think people should wear the awards that go with the current environment. You're wearing a CAP uniform so wear CAP awards. You wear an AD uniform then wear AD awards. I'm an Eagle Scout, I'll only wear that award in the appropriate venue.

Is it authorized for wear?  If you saw my post it stated if I chose too and the signifigance behind that choice.  I have CAP ribbons to wear and those are what I will wear.  I wouldnt knock anyone for choosing to wear their AD stuff is they chose to. 

[Eclipse]

You are correct, it isn't about medals and ribbons.  Which is why I've already said I've reached my conclusion that I'll wear a golf shirt or no ribbons at all.  But assuming that's true, I do wonder about the amount of hot emotion here over my question.

You're going to "take a stand" by adjusting your uniform choice based on this, but you wonder about the "emotion"?

You can't have it both ways, either you care or you don't.  If you don't, wear your CAP ribbons, don't bring it up to other members, and move on.

[bflynn]

If you adjust your thinking back to "he doesn't really care much", then go back and re-read this thread with that in mind, I think you'll get an entirely different picture that you appear to have.  This isn't about me whining about not being able to wear military awards on a CAP uniform...I was curious about the reason for it and people have gotten off onto an entirely different tangent.

Do I care?  Sure, just enough to admit that yes, I'd like to have my military accomplishments shown.  But that isn't permitted for undefined reasons, so I'll just go on.  It's a very minor disappointment.  But the attitudes I've seen in this thread are far, far more troubling to me.

[lordmonar]

I'd tell a volunteer who was unable or unwilling to contribute to our here and now mission because of heartburn over some bling candy,  that their time and energy might be better spent in other pursuits.

CAP is not about showing off the awesome stuff you have done so people (including ones self) can think you are cool.

It's about promoting airpower, mentoring young adults, and providing a resource to meet emergencies at the local, state, and national level.

You are correct, it isn't about medals and ribbons.  Which is why I've already said I've reached my conclusion that I'll wear a golf shirt or no ribbons at all.  But assuming that's true, I do wonder about the amount of hot emotion here over my question.

My reason for joining was to serve my community.  If I leave, it will be because I've lost hope that CAP can do that effectively. 

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

It's not your question so much....I agree that we should be allowed to wear the military ribbons and badges....but we can't.  From that point it is simply supporting the organsisation and following the rules.

[Ned]

One of the small ironies of working on various committees at the National level is this kind of thing.

Some of us have worked VERY hard to provide professional-appearing uniforms for members not currently qualified to wear the USAF-style uniforms.

As Bob pointed out earlier, for most of our history, the only distinctive corporate uniform was the blazer.  And no ribbons or devices of any kind are worn on the blazer (except for grade on the nametag.)  Today, most folks wearing the blazer are wearing the aviator shirt unifom beneath (not strictly kosher, but works for all practical purposes.)  But properly and historically, the blazer is worn with a plain white shirt / blouse.  Or even a white turtleneck.

It was only with the advent of the aviator shirt uniform that we were able to find a way to allow seniors to wear shoulder grade, badges, devices, and CAP ribbons.  It was a huge step forward, and one well-deserved by our volunteers who could now wear their earned CAP bling on a decent-looking non-USAF style uniform.

That was a Good Thing and a Great Victory.

Like anything else dealing with CAP uniforms, the "CAP ribbons only" thing was a compromise.  If we had not compromised, we would still be in blazers and polos only.

And I fully understand that the nature of compromise is that no one is truly happy because by definition, no one got the full extent of what they wanted.

I was just hoping that the discussion would be about how great it was that we could wear CAP ribbons on a corporate uniform rather than how unfair it is that we cannot wear non-CAP ribbons when the USAF style uniform permits them.

Sigh.

[bflynn]

Apparently some read what they want to read.

It was a compromise...ok, that makes sense.  Do you happen to remember the reasons people were opposed to military awards being worn?  I just find it not making sense and the only background I have for it comes from experiences with people who are anti-military, which I'm sure is not the case here.

No, we're not the military, but I know awards from other branches are authorized for wear in different services.  That would seem to be precedent.  It's not like I want to wear my dolphins over CAP wings (when I get my form 5 done)

[a2capt]

If I went out on a limb ..  I might say it has to do with the part about military awards not being worn on civilian clothes, at least from the Air Force's viewpoint, because we are under that influence. That we are a civilian organization with Air Force structure, and again see the first part.

What does your branch of service say about wearing those awards on anything other than the uniform they go on?

The Air Force may or may not control the Corporate uniform, but again, the Air Force says no military ribbons on civilian attire, military, not just Air Force, but you say you're not or never have been in the Air Force, but this organization IS related to the Air Force. So ..

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The USAF has control over our uniforms....all of them.  They don't lord it over us....but they do let their displesure known........AKA the CSU.

As has been postulated many times, there is no proof that the AF had a downer on the CSU.  If that were the case, they would have kiboshed it from the getgo.  We were never really given a concrete reason on that whole mess...probably the worst-handled uniform issue in CAP in my memory (the berry boards don't count because they were imposed on us).

It's ok, I'll wear the golf shirt or no ribbons at all if I wear my aviator shirt.  I'll just be a little less energetic and CAP will get a little less effort from me...

I certainly hope you didn't take that attitude in the Navy.  I would question why you would continue to Come And Pay in an organisation that has rules so distressing to you.  I was really, really ticked off when the CSU was killed but after 1 January of this year, it became a "suck it up and get on with things" issue.

What you see in my sig line is my ribbon rack that I wear in both AF and G/W orders of dress.  I have others that I could potentially wear, but I don't.  I'm not trying to make a statement by doing that, I just prefer the K.I.S.S. model (and I'm not talking about Gene Simmons).  The last award I got was my CommComm...several years ago, unless you count another clasp to my RSR.

As others here know quite well  , I will be the first one to say that I think the grey/white uniform sucks rocks (and the blazer is even worse), and that I believe CAP's idea to the "distinctiveness" non-issue is to turn everything grey.  It is colourless and would be much better with a blue airline-type shirt as I see it, but NHQ didn't ask me. 

I will also be the first one to say that it is worlds better than the previous grey/white setup.  I knew so many people in CAP who were rightly distressed that they could not wear their CAP ribbons or rank (other than on the black nameplate) that they were understandably over the moon when the white shirt with epaulettes was authorised.

I also know of a lot of long-serving CAP members who have a considerable ribbon rack and do not wear it on the white shirt, unless they're "dressing up," i.e., with the long-sleeved shirt and tie.

I personally don't wear my speciality badges on either the AF blue or the white shirt.  Those stay on my AF service dress.

When we had the CSU we couldn't wear military ribbons on that either.

The only way I could ever see any kind of military ribbons on the G/W would be completely non-Air Force ones (Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard)...and that's really stretching it.

[coudano]

You are correct, it isn't about medals and ribbons.  Which is why I've already said I've reached my conclusion that I'll wear a golf shirt or no ribbons at all.  But assuming that's true, I do wonder about the amount of hot emotion here over my question.

I wear the golf shirt or the white shirt without ribbons only, as my primary CAP duty uniform.
No big deal.

I've only been in my CAP blues once in the last...   7(?) years.  And that was service dress.  So I wore my ribbons.  I wouldn't wear any ribbons at all on the blues shirt(only) either, just because I would only wear ribbons on the coat anyway.

I wouldn't wear my military stuff on my CAP uniform, because I simply feel they don't belong there.  That's just my personal opinion.  My CAP ribbons alone were sufficient for my CAP uniform when I was a CAP member before joining the military.  They are still sufficient for my CAP uniform after joining the military as well.  From my view, your accomplishments in one are unrelated to your accomplishments in the other; so your bling from one doesn't belong on the other.  This is a two way street.

[lordmonar]

The USAF has control over our uniforms....all of them.  They don't lord it over us....but they do let their displesure known........AKA the CSU.

As has been postulated many times, there is no proof that the AF had a downer on the CSU.  If that were the case, they would have kiboshed it from the getgo.  We were never really given a concrete reason on that whole mess...probably the worst-handled uniform issue in CAP in my memory (the berry boards don't count because they were imposed on us).

When the CSU first came out....the USAF "asked" that we make some changes to it.  Then out of the blue the NEC canned the CSU all together.

Now we are all members of CAP and represent a good cross section of the membership.....but did anyone else hear from a NB or NEC member that they did not like the CSU?  While some did not like it.....there was certainly a good number of our members who did. 

No.....I beleive the USAF did not like it from the get go....but were not willing to get into a urinary olympics with the former National Commander over.....so the......wait for it......compromised and then brought it up again when we got a new commander.

[Майор Хаткевич]

What I said:

The solution? Get "fit/clean shaven" for the Air Force uniform. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices. Earn CAP decorations that will tell others what you can and have done in CAP, or quit over the issue.

What you chose to quote.

. For some, due to medical reasons it may not be an option. That leaves only two choices.
... quit over the issue.

Care to quote the meat of a message instead of some gerrymandered perversion of the thought?

Get fit or get out then....I've been trying, but it's not working.  If CAP only wants 180 lb clean cut guys, there goes 90% of my squadron....

Did you really just tell a volunteer to quit?  What would your CO think of that?

I guess I'll restate it for you: Earn CAP decorations that will tell others what you can and have done in CAP.

But as for my Commander? I can't speak for him, but I'm about 98 1/2% sure he'd find a concern like this, above all others, to be quite silly.

[PHall]

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

Last time I looked we had three missions that are mandated by the Congress.

1. The Cadet Program.

2. Emergency Services.

3. Aerospace Education.

[PWK-GT]

As I have been invoked now 3 times, I will magically appear and comment.

What I said:

But as for my Commander? I can't speak for him, but I'm about 98 1/2% sure he'd find a concern like this, above all others, to be quite silly.

Quite silly indeed. This kind of hand wringing is usually evident early on with newer members, and quite quickly explained as a 'non-starter' when setting the expectations. You agree to the rules of the game as in place at time of joining....and move on. This isn't a CAP-specific issue, I tell personnel under me at my day job the same thing: If it means you have to vote with your feet, then so be it...and thank you for your service. Next contestant.....

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

While I would agree that a good commander strives to keep his people engaged (that tends to be a major retention tool here, but YMMV)....it is firmly on the individual to keep themselves 'energized'. Twenty members have twenty attitudes / goals / happiness triggers, and I could devote 80 hours a week trying to satisfy just one of them....let alone 50 of them. If it's supported in the Regs or such, then it is something I will look into. I could also buy everyone a sportscar, or new snowblower to 'keep them energized'.....but I'm not going to. How they energize or self-motivate is up to them, and something that will set them apart from their peers for recognition sake.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

There aren't, but putting my former-psychology-student hat on for a moment...

I believe most know about Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs.

http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp

Basically, it says that most human beings want to be appreciated for what they do.  Some find that in their workplace (this has been steadily decreasing).  Some find it in their religious affiliation.  Some find it in volunteer work, such as CAP.  We do not get paid monetarily, and a relatively small percentage of us will ever have the satisfaction that comes from direct involvement in actually saving a life.

So, what CAP does is provide (mostly) earned ranks and ribbons to say "good show, job well done."  Unfortunately, the way some of those are handed out to friend-of-a-friend-who-sucked-up-to-someone-at-Wing cheapens it a bit.

But in our hyper-individualistic culture those who are seen as "go-getters" usually get the recognition and those who aren't (or whose work is largely behind-the-scenes), usually don't.  That is true for CAP too.

[MSG Mac]

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

So, what CAP does is provide (mostly) earned ranks and ribbons to say "good show, job well done."  Unfortunately, the way some of those are handed out to friend-of-a-friend-who-sucked-up-to-someone-at-Wing cheapens it a bit.

But in our hyper-individualistic culture those who are seen as "go-getters" usually get the recognition and those who aren't (or whose work is largely behind-the-scenes), usually don't.  That is true for CAP too.

The problem with getting awards isn't due to suck-ups or patronage, it's that few people actually fill out the form 120 to reward these members. When I was a Wing DP, I had to beg  for nominations for Member of the year and for people to recognize their members. So if you have someone who is performing above and beyond fill out the F120 and send it off to the next higher echelon. Takes five minutes to fill out and can be electronically signed if necessary.

[ol'fido]

As I have been invoked now 3 times, I will magically appear and comment.

What I said:

But as for my Commander? I can't speak for him, but I'm about 98 1/2% sure he'd find a concern like this, above all others, to be quite silly.

Quite silly indeed. This kind of hand wringing is usually evident early on with newer members, and quite quickly explained as a 'non-starter' when setting the expectations. You agree to the rules of the game as in place at time of joining....and move on. This isn't a CAP-specific issue, I tell personnel under me at my day job the same thing: If it means you have to vote with your feet, then so be it...and thank you for your service. Next contestant.....

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

While I would agree that a good commander strives to keep his people engaged (that tends to be a major retention tool here, but YMMV)....it is firmly on the individual to keep themselves 'energized'. Twenty members have twenty attitudes / goals / happiness triggers, and I could devote 80 hours a week trying to satisfy just one of them....let alone 50 of them. If it's supported in the Regs or such, then it is something I will look into. I could also buy everyone a sportscar, or new snowblower to 'keep them energized'.....but I'm not going to. How they energize or self-motivate is up to them, and something that will set them apart from their peers for recognition sake.

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

[PWK-GT]

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

[a2capt]

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

Ya.. they get rid of the ones they think will be lousy neighbors, *before* they get there themselves!

Awards are one thing that can be used to keep Members happy, and awards cost everyone practically nothing. Just the time to fill out the recommendation. Used consistently when you see someone go above and beyond, constantly shows up when there's a need, brings new ideas to the table, and motivates others to do the same.

I'm not talking about giving them out like Berlin airlift candy drop, but just realizing that on of the tools available to commanders, and staff for recognition are various awards, that cost nothing to give when the time is right.

[bflynn]

This seems to have degraded into the discussion that people wanted to have so they could have something to complain about.  Please go on with until you're all satisified, but it's been far too great of a day for me to share in the negativity.

Why?  I got to make a couple of great training sorties today...

[ol'fido]

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

He's allowed. I'm not. They tend to frown on that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

This seems to have degraded into the discussion that people wanted to have so they could have something to complain about.  Please go on with until you're all satisified, but it's been far too great of a day for me to share in the negativity.

Why?  I got to make a couple of great training sorties today...

Really? While offtopic, this is turning into a hilarious conversation about our state politics.

[RADIOMAN015]

Not to be argumentative, but why would an Air Force instruction apply to me?  I was never in the Air Force and I'm not now.  The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform, as far as they're concerned, it is civilian wear.  Nor does an AFI apply to a veteran who isn't in the military any more.


The only thing I've heard so far that makes any sense is that once upon a time someone decided they wanted CAP uniforms to be distinctive.

The AF uniform regulations would not apply to you because CAP members (acting as CAP members) are considered as civilians and have no protocol standing in the USAF, other than the typical customs/courtesies that would be extended to ANY civilians.

At least what I've observed in the past,  American Legion & VFW uniforms have had their members wearing their "earned" military ribbons on their AL/VFW specific uniforms. 

I see NO reason why the AF can't change their regulation that specifically allows the wear of AF ribbons on CAP (as well as other patriotic organization uniforms).  (Perhaps this is congressional interest item to ensure that all military services allow this via their regulations)  HOWEVER, until that happens one should be complying with what the AF and CAP have agreed to regarding the corporate uniform wear and what can be worn on it. BTW the same argument could be made as to why CAP ribbons (which are civilian awards) are allowed to be worn on an AF type uniforms by adults.  Logically something is missing.

RM   
       

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They are civilian awards, but they are authorised by a military service, just as awards for the CGAUX are, and in fact the CGAUX can earn actual CG military awards, unlike us.

Although I've never seen it, I've read that some SDF's (which are military), allow their members to wear CAP ribbons, and of course most know that Army/Air National Guard personnel cannot wear state awards they've earned when in Federal service.

[Stonewall]

Go to www.militarysignatures.com and you can sport your ribbons in every post here on CAP Talk 

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.  Show the pride you have through your actions and prove to others that you're worth more than the ribbons you could wear on your chest.  Be a quiet professional volunteer and you'll be noticed for things that are worth much more than cloth ribbons.

[bflynn]

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.

Well...no, I don't.  I think it's important to keep military accomplishments alive.  It's not about bragging or showing off, although it's obvious that is what some people think. 

I agree that execution and results are so much more important. 

And I'll still wear my CAP ribbons on my VFW and USSVI uniforms. 

[FlyTiger77]

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.

Well...no, I don't...

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think it was Sir Winston Churchill who said "what's the good of busting your guts if at the end of the day all you're left with is a mess on the floor?"

[Private Investigator]

I see NO reason why the AF can't change their regulation that specifically allows the wear of AF ribbons on CAP (as well as other patriotic organization uniforms).       

I have seen homeless men wearing AF ribbons on their clothes. Should I call the USAF Security Forces on them?   

[bflynn]

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

LOL

Maybe I can get some traction?  And that wouldn't be beating my head against the wall?  LOL.

Nah, I don't really care enough even to write it down.

[FlyTiger77]

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

LOL

Maybe I can get some traction?  And that wouldn't be beating my head against the wall?  LOL.

Nah, I don't really care enough even to write it down.

Of course, it is your call. If you send the proposal up, at least you can get a Yes/No answer.

I think I know what the answer would be, but you never know.

[bflynn]

Yeah, well that's probably the real truth - I know there's about .001% chance that it would even get to someone at the top to make a decision and the answer then would be 100% no.  I think anyone who has spent more than a week experience CAP culture knows that answer.

So why would anyone even waste time doing anything above a squadron or maybe wing level?

[ol'fido]

At one point the NLO declared them "inappropriate"

[Eclipse]

So why would anyone even waste time doing anything above a squadron or maybe wing level?

Because, while the squadron is the heart of CAP, above Wing is where policy and regulations are made.  There are likely any number of people at that level who would agree with you.

There is also a direct channel to the National Commander to ask questions which could be utilized.

[coudano]

So why would anyone even waste time doing anything above a squadron or maybe wing level?

Because, while the squadron is the heart of CAP, above Wing is where policy and regulations are made.  There are likely any number of people at that level who would agree with you.

There is also a direct channel to the National Commander to ask questions which could be utilized.

Some people think (and occasionally they are right) that they can make CAP better *FOR THE SQUADRONS* by serving at higher echelons.

Some people (imho wrongly) think that "bigger is better" and rush to the highest position of responsibility they can get to as soon as they can possibly get there.  combining that with a lack of people to fill upper echelon positions and you can see a LT with less than 2 years in CAP at a wing level directorate position...   ugh.  Wings also have a tendency to 'vacuum' the talented people up out of the units, which I think of primarily as a disservice to the unit in most cases.

Some people /WANT/ to play the nonsense games that ensue at 'echelons above reality', because that's what they enjoy doing.

Personally I /CHOOSE/ to stay at the squadron level for basically all of the reasons above.  I think I have the most impact on the real world missions of CAP at the local level, running a squadron cadet program, participating in a unit level ground team, and launching with a unit level aircrew.  I will do occasional project at wing+ level, but it's not my "primary" mode of operation, and won't be.

[Private Investigator]

Now I am not telling on anyone. But does anybody think that someplace in CAP a Unit may not be following regulations?

I will bet anybody that some place a Unit is letting its Senior Members wear military ribbons on a CAP distinctive uniform.   

[Pylon]

Now I am not telling on anyone. But does anybody think that someplace in CAP a Unit may not be following regulations?

I will bet anybody that some place a Unit is letting its Senior Members wear military ribbons on a CAP distinctive uniform.   

Not saying its right, but there are probably far more serious and prevalent problems to first be concerned with in CAP.