"Going Grey at 65:" A Modest Proposal for SM Uniforms

Started by ddelaney103, January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PM

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

ddelaney103

I have been kicking around for some time a "unified field theory" for our uniforms and wanted to expose it to ridicule get input.

I went into this with a few ground rules.  The first was taking the current uniform set as a starting point.  The second was trying to keep the expenses for meeting the new standard to a minimum.  The third was trying to make as many of the accessories for the uniforms standardized across the variations.  This not only saves money, it makes compliance easier, as opposed to trying to keep track of "X goes with the white and blues, Y goes with the white and greys and Z goes with AF-style service."

"Coat and Jacket" Uniforms:

Mess Dress - Replace blue sleeve and shoulder board braid with grey braid.

Blazer - No major changes, but allow the wear of either mini medals or ribbons for formal events.  I can wear AF mini medals on civilian wear IAW 36-2903, we should be able to wear them on the blazer

AF Service Dress - Replace blue sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Replace grey embroidered epaulets with plain grey epaulets and pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts.  NOTE: metal insignia requires AF approval.

TPU - Replace silver sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Place pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts on plain grey epaulets.

"Shirt Sleeve" Uniforms:

white and greys/AF-style service  - No changes

TPU shirt combo - Replace AF epaulets with grey epaulets.  Replace blue 2-line nametag with grey 3-line nametag.

Golf Shirt - Not authorized for operational missions.  Grant exception for missions where golf shirts are the uniforms (for example, in some state command centers most organizations wear golf shirts so it makes sense to fit in). Authorized for proficiency flying.  Treat as work uniform, not service uniform.

"One Piece" Work Uniforms:

AF Flight Suit/CAP Flight Suit/CAP Utility Uniform - Replace plastic grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace leather name tag with white on grey cloth nametag with CAP Emblem, skill badge, name and "Civil Air Patrol" (no grade).  NOTE: cloth nametag requires AF approval.  Authorize the wear of grey baseball cap or patrol cap.

"Two Piece" Work Uniforms:

BDU/CAP Field Uniform - Replace full color embroidered on blue grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace white on blue name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges with white on grey name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges.  Make grey baseball cap or patrol cap the "default" headgear - others may be authorized for wear but everyone will have a grey hat.

"Idle Thoughts"

In a perfect world, I'd go with grey flight caps for SM's - not only would it sync up with the uniform theme, but would provide another point of unification b/w the service style uniforms.  That might be an expensive proposition to produce, but we might be able to drop the CAP badge for medal grade insignia.

I don't see the Cadets adopting any of the service uniform changes, though they could adopt all of the utility uniform changes.  They'd need to add "Cadet" to the flightsuit nametag, however.

Finally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.

afgeo4

GEORGE LURYE

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer

ddelaney103

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 31, 2007, 06:23:06 PM
What!

No grey beret to go with your grey kilts?

I thought about mentioning National Grey Beret, but everyone would bite off on that flare...

ddelaney103

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 31, 2007, 05:55:50 PM
The world is very grey for you, isn't it?  :P

Grey may not have been my first choice, but you work with what you got.  It would be nice to be able to say, "these embroidered epaulets go on the shirt and the ones with the metal pin on grade go on the jackets" instead of, "those grey ones go on that shirt and that jacket, but only put it on that shirt if you're wearing grey pants - put these blue ones on if you wear the blue pants with that shirt."

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

DogCollar

Ch. Maj. Bill Boldin, CAP

LtCol White

I see no point in making further mods involving grey items. As we have discussed at length here and on portal, the goal is to attempt to get our uniforms back to how they used to be. This will take some time to convince USAF to approve that move since we have a LOT of work to do with our membership. Given that, we are better off not tinkering with whats there unless it moves us towards fixing things more along the lines of how they used to be.

Mess dress - looks fine with the blue braid. Its our only USAF Uniform that hasn't been damaged.

TPU - Who cares, it already looks ridiculous, leave it alone.

USAF Service Dress - Fine as is until we can do something to get rid of the grey.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

ddelaney103

Quote from: LtCol White on January 31, 2007, 07:31:05 PM
I see no point in making further mods involving grey items. As we have discussed at length here and on portal, the goal is to attempt to get our uniforms back to how they used to be. This will take some time to convince USAF to approve that move since we have a LOT of work to do with our membership. Given that, we are better off not tinkering with whats there unless it moves us towards fixing things more along the lines of how they used to be.

Mess dress - looks fine with the blue braid. Its our only USAF Uniform that hasn't been damaged.

TPU - Who cares, it already looks ridiculous, leave it alone.

USAF Service Dress - Fine as is until we can do something to get rid of the grey.


"How they used to be?" Like our glory days of WWII, when we wore red epaulets and red sleeve braid on our jackets?

There is nothing wrong with looking a little different from USAF, and a lot to be said for trying to make sure all of our people look like they're in the same org.

Frankly, Mess Dress is the most jacked up uniform in the AF inventory.  It is dull as dishwater compared to all of the other services.  Replacing the blue satin lapels and pants stripe with grey would be a big improvement.

The TPU is something on which many people have dropped big bucks.  Simply ignoring it doesn't seem fair.  I suspect we could make it a little more palatable to the AF (if they cared) by adopting the CAP distinctive insignia.  We'd also save our members a little money and a lot of hassle.

floridacyclist

Sorry that you feel that way
The only thing there is to say
Every silver lining's got a
Touch of grey


Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

Pace

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PM
I have been kicking around for some time a "unified field theory" for our uniforms and wanted to expose it to ridicule get input.
If you changed your color of preference to black I might see your point, but grey is worse than what we have now (how long exactly has everyone been complaining about grey epaulets???).

After reading this whole post, there's a box of Just for Men with your name on it.  Maybe it'll soak all the way in and get the grey out of your head.  ;D

QuoteMess Dress - Replace blue sleeve and shoulder board braid with grey braid.
Non-concur.  Leave it alone.  Those items are not shared with any other CAP uniform combination, and that would do exactly what you're trying to avoid...cost lots of people lots of money.

QuoteBlazer - No major changes, but allow the wear of either mini medals or ribbons for formal events.  I can wear AF mini medals on civilian wear IAW 36-2903, we should be able to wear them on the blazer.
Concur.

QuoteAF Service Dress - Replace blue sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Replace grey embroidered epaulets with plain grey epaulets and pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts.  NOTE: metal insignia requires AF approval.
1. Forget colors, why not just remove the sleeve braid?
2. The chrome nametag has been around for several years now, and I have yet to see a problem with its cost or implementation.  Non-concur.
3. How often do senior members get promoted?  Not often enough to break the bank, I think.  Plus, I don't see the point in lowering the quality of the rank slide just to save a few bucks.  Besides, every current member out there would have to buy the "new" rank slides defeating the purpose of saving money.  Non-concur.

QuoteTPU - Replace silver sleeve braid with grey braid.  Replace chrome nametag with grey 3-line nametag.  Place pin on metal insignia and CAP cutouts on plain grey epaulets.
Don't waste your breath or ink on this one.  The TPU was designed to take the epaulet sleeves off the uniform.  Pull the braid off and leave the chrome nametag alone.

Quotewhite and greys/AF-style service  - No changes
Allow professional/well-maintained facial hair in the TPU and get rid of the white and greys.

QuoteTPU shirt combo - Replace AF epaulets with grey epaulets.  Replace blue 2-line nametag with grey 3-line nametag.
Again, don't waste your breath or ink.  The intent was to remove the grey rank slides and grey nametag.

QuoteGolf Shirt - Not authorized for operational missions.  Grant exception for missions where golf shirts are the uniforms (for example, in some state command centers most organizations wear golf shirts so it makes sense to fit in). Authorized for proficiency flying.  Treat as work uniform, not service uniform.
Concur.

QuoteAF Flight Suit/CAP Flight Suit/CAP Utility Uniform - Replace plastic grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace leather name tag with white on grey cloth nametag with CAP Emblem, skill badge, name and "Civil Air Patrol" (no grade).  NOTE: cloth nametag requires AF approval.  Authorize the wear of grey baseball cap or patrol cap.
Seriously, get off your grey kick and pick a dark-toned color.
1. Concur with embroidered insignia (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue).
2. Concur with the cloth nametag (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue) and with removing the grade from the nametag.  Non-concur with adding a CAP emblem.  That's what the MAJCOM is for.
3. Concur with baseball cap (with a dark-toned color like black or navy blue).

QuoteBDU/CAP Field Uniform - Replace full color embroidered on blue grade with full color embroidered on grey grade.  Replace white on blue name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges with white on grey name tape, CIVIL AIR PATROL tape and skill badges.  Make grey baseball cap or patrol cap the "default" headgear - others may be authorized for wear but everyone will have a grey hat.
Concur with everything (if the color is darker) except leave the hat alone.  That'll just force everyone to go out and buy a new hat when there's no reason to change.  What we have currently works just fine.

QuoteFinally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.
Concur.
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

dcpacemaker,

I understand your aversion to the grey, but I don't see the AF changing it anytime soon.  If that's the case, we might as well run with it.

Changing the braid is something we have to do with old AF Mess Dress anyway - I'd be just as happy to get rid of it altogether.  The blue braid on the shoulderboards is just a hassle.  Ironicly, the CAP GO boards look better than the AF GO boards, as the AF boards have too much silver.

I don't think going with dark nametapes for the BBDU is a good idea.  If we match colors with the suit you run into the problem of them fading at different rates.

The goal with the Service Dress changes wasn't primarily saving money.  It was to have the two uniform jackets have similar means of wearing grade.

I do think having one primary hat for the various utility uniforms is important.  It would be a way to have a common thread running across the many suits that are worn on operations.

aveighter

I must disagree.  At my age the thought of adding more grey is pure heresy.  And the Mess Dress is a marvelous looking uniform (if you can wear it properly) .  Making the lapels grey would look absolutely horrendous!  Something only P Diddy could love.


Pace

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 09:55:19 PM
dcpacemaker
Feel free to call me Daniel.

QuoteI understand your aversion to the grey, but I don't see the AF changing it anytime soon.  If that's the case, we might as well run with it.
I don't buy into the concept of making everything grey just because the Air Force made our rank slides grey.  The BDU tapes/insignia and flight suit insignia don't have to match the service uniform rank slides (they don't now).

QuoteThe blue braid on the shoulderboards is just a hassle.
How?  You buy the shoulderboards and it's on there.  Where's the hassle?  Or do you take Air Force boards and custom make yours?

QuoteI don't think going with dark nametapes for the BBDU is a good idea.  If we match colors with the suit you run into the problem of them fading at different rates.
We're not talking about just the BBDUs.  I'm talking about using navy blue or black for everything that is currently on an ultramarine blue background.  And our current tapes fade at a different rate anyway.  If avoiding matching colors is your concern then go with black.

QuoteThe goal with the Service Dress changes wasn't primarily saving money.  It was to have the two uniform jackets have similar means of wearing grade.
Never gonna happen since TP's entire purpose was to get rid of the rank slides in favor of pin-on rank.  Remove the sleeve braids since they look extremely out of place.  I would, however, be in favor of using either of the Chrome nametags for both uniforms (probably the one with "Civil Air Patrol" to maintain distinctiveness).

QuoteI do think having one primary hat for the various utility uniforms is important.  It would be a way to have a common thread running across the many suits that are worn on operations.
I see your point, but on operations the first thing I would do is ditch the ballcap and put on the slightly more protective and durable BDU/BBDU cap.  As long as the option was in place to throw on the BDU/BBDU hat for operations then I don't really care what the primary cover is for weekly meetings and non-operations related activities.
Lt Col, CAP

NIN

"embrace the grey!"

I see where Dan is going with this, and I gotta say, I don't much disagree with it!

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pace

#15
[redacted]
Lt Col, CAP

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 05:46:32 PMFinally, change CAP Customs and Courtesies to require salutes in all uniforms except blazer and golf shirt.  Right now, "To The Colors" would require a salute from those in AF-style and removing of hats and hand over heart from corp types.

Military C&C is also extended to those who wear the TPU, but not the grays.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

SAR-EMT1

I merely wanted to ask why several folks are proposing removal of the sleeve braid on the Service and Mess Dress. Currently All Officers Uniforms of All Services Have Braid on their sleeves. Its one of the distinctions to the Officer's Uniforms.  So for CAP to remove the braid from its "Officers" uniforms would look very out of place where looked at from a broader perspective.
So I say keep it as is. Changing it to silver would in my humble opinion look too gaudy and Grey... well lets get away from grey. - No offense-
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Pace

That was my suggestion.  I honestly didn't realize that all branches did that for their officers.  Yet with that said, why exactly is that needed for us?  Not having it would be more (even if only slightly) distinctive, and when exactly did we get an enlisted corps?  Don't use cadets as our example because an officer corp and a cadet training environment is not the same as having an officer/enlisted force.  We (CAP officers) do all the planning AND footwork.  No officer distinction necessary.
Lt Col, CAP

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: dcpacemaker on February 01, 2007, 03:48:40 AM
That was my suggestion.  I honestly didn't realize that all branches did that for their officers.  Yet with that said, why exactly is that needed for us?  No officer distinction necessary.

Well.. to clarify something: the Navy and USCG use the braid itself as a rank identifier. Look at an Admiral and it goes clear to the elbow  ;D

That said, CAP USED TO HAVE A OFFICER/ENLISTED SIDE and so I guess it is tradition. (I'm only 21 so I cant speak from actual experience) Aside from that, if we grow closer to the AF it could be argued that as AF-Aux Officers would be required to adhere as do AF Officers. - though I cant remember if the AD AF has blue or silver (Can someone tell me? )

C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student