What is wrong with NBB headgear?

Started by carnold1836, January 29, 2007, 02:13:46 PM

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Chris Jacobs

Quote from: carnold1836 on January 30, 2007, 03:53:48 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 30, 2007, 04:47:40 AM
I remember one NBB grad in the squadron I was in as a cadet many years ago.  He was one of the most squared away cadets in the unit and I don't remember any attitude.  Don't recall meeting any since. 

However, I do think the headgear should only be worn, if at all, at the event itself.  I think it is a distraction from unit cohesion elsewhere.

My NBB cadet is the same way, He is really awesome and was a great 1st Sgt for 9 months. I Finlay got him to get his Mitchell. He is distinctly squared away and is always a pleasure to work with for both cadets and Officers. If I had an entire squadron like him I would have squadron of the century locked up.

Did he go this last year.  If he did i may know who you are talking about.  If it is him he was a great cadet.  The cadet that i am thinking about would continually keep working even if he wasn't on duty.  I told him he needed to go relax some times, but he was really fun to be around.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Pace

Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

Obviously from my sig I'm a "Beret", and I like having the option of wearing it should I choose.  However, I think for the sake of uniformity and smaller egos overall I support only wearing it at the activity.
Lt Col, CAP

ddelaney103

Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 01:57:05 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

And I think that sums up a lot of the problems with CAP.  No plan, rhyme or reason - just ask a boon of the King when's he in the right mood and some Cadet's silly idea is now regulation.  I suppose we should be glad he didn't ask for bloused boots and flight jackets while he was at it.

Chris Jacobs

Has the wear outside of the activity been formally approved.  I can't find any thing regulation wise that would say that it is formally approved.  I know that it was given the "ok" at the NB meeting, but i thought there was more to the process than that.  Every one on this thread keep referring to it like it has been approved.  So can any one show me written prof that it is allowed to be worn?
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

MIKE

I haven't seen the usual policy letter yet. 
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 31, 2007, 03:26:25 AM
Quote from: dcpacemaker on January 31, 2007, 01:57:05 AM
Quote from: Guardrail on January 30, 2007, 04:53:16 AM
Does anyone know why National approved wear of the blue beret after NBB?
The other answers to this question were decently funny, but not how it happened.

Back at the activity this past summer (2006), I was standing around with (then) Col Courter, Col Greenhut, and Maj Gen Pineda on the NBB compound.  A cadet, who will go unnamed, approached us and proceeded to ask TP if the beret could be authorized outside of the activity.  The General turned to Col Greenhut and talked about it for a few moments.  I believe it was Greenhut that mentioned the Hawk Mountain bling.  Then the general instructed Greenhut to get it ready for the NB to approve at the next meeting.  The rest is history...

And I think that sums up a lot of the problems with CAP.  No plan, rhyme or reason - just ask a boon of the King when's he in the right mood and some Cadet's silly idea is now regulation.  I suppose we should be glad he didn't ask for bloused boots and flight jackets while he was at it.

Somebody find that kid and tell him to ask for navy-blue nametapes with the BDU!
Another former CAP officer

mikeylikey

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2007, 05:49:16 AM
KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Wow....wish that wouldn't have been passed!  The motion should have failed.  I guess Hawk bling truely is more important than the immediate needs of our members for funding and equipment.  The whole issue is crazy, it is only another way for those that went to show what?  Oh thats right.......they WENT!  In my world, every single uniform issue would go before a committe that was comprised of 5 randomly selected CAP members and 5 Air Force members.  Distinctive items that the committe approves would go before the CAP-USAF Commander and he would decide to allow it on the CAP uniform or not.  Lets not forget the CAP uniform is the AF uniform, and they have complete control over it.  I can't wait until the AF smacks back hard.  I think it may very well be in the near future! 
What's up monkeys?

shorning

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 31, 2007, 08:01:59 AM
Lets not forget the CAP uniform is the AF uniform, and they have complete control over it. 

Um...no, only some of them are.  They only own the Air Force-style uniforms.  They don't have any control the CAP distinctive uniforms.


Really folks, the Air Force doesn't care about this as much as you think they do.  Yeah, they care...but only a little.  And even then probably more on an individual level than as an organization. 

Chris Jacobs

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2007, 05:49:16 AM
KB Article: http://tinyurl.com/3yfeey

Can a cadet that participated in Blue Beret (airshow) wear the beret at squadron meetings? Cadets came back from the national board and said there was a new policy.

Partially true. After discussion of several options, the August 2006 National Board approved: "All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green." The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms.

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Ok the las line says that National headquarters will send notification to the field and change the appropriate CAP regulations.  Did this ever happen?  I can't find any regulation changes on line.  It seems to me that it is not really appropriate tell that happens.  and it has been like 6 months.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on January 31, 2007, 02:50:18 PM
Ok the las line says that National headquarters will send notification to the field and change the appropriate CAP regulations.  Did this ever happen?  I can't find any regulation changes on line.  It seems to me that it is not really appropriate tell that happens.  and it has been like 6 months.

Don't hold your breath... expect either a policy letter followed by a future rewrite of CAPM 39-1 (sometime in the next decade) or watch this little tidbit be quietly forgotten when it really comes time to incorporate it into the appropriate manual(s). Which will p*ss off the NBBers and the HMRS to no end.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

BillB

What exactly are the Hawk mountain AWARDS?  Is it the scarfs? whistles? patches?
Seems like there is a difference between what hawk uses as a uniform and what is AWARDED.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Pace

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 31, 2007, 02:58:56 PM
watch this little tidbit be quietly forgotten when it really comes time to incorporate it into the appropriate manual(s). Which will p*ss off the NBBers and the HMRS to no end.

Not all of us:

Quote from: dcpacemaker
Obviously from my sig I'm a "Beret", and I like having the option of wearing it should I choose.  However, I think for the sake of uniformity and smaller egos overall I support only wearing it at the activity.
Lt Col, CAP

RiverAux

So, basically the governing body of CAP has ceded the right to control CAP uniforms to the staff at NBB and Hawk Mountain?  They can design any patches, hats, or other items and they are automatically approved to be worn no matter how crazy.

I don't think they can do that as the Air Force has ultimate control over what goes on the AF-style BDUs and I am sure they will not want to give up their authority to some encampment staff officer.


For all you that have uniform pet peeves, now is your chance.  Get on the staff of one of these schools and propose anything you want and you will probably get it done without having to go through all those hoops normal people do. 



I suppose they can allow it for blue BDUs though. 

1st Lt Provost

My understanding of Hawk Mountain Awards would include all the uniform items.  I went there in 2003, and upon graduating were told we were awarded all the items such as scarves, belts, tabs, hats, whistles, etc.  However, our Wing CC promptly notified us that there wasn't a regulatory provision that coincided with that statement made by the staff at HMRS.  After careful review, and going through the proper channels, our Wing has adopted that it includes all the items as I have mentioned above.  

Personally, I think it's overboard.  There is no need for a cadet to wear all these distinctive items from HMRS or the beret from NBB. I think it detracts from why the cadets are there.  They have enough social class distinction outside of CAP.  If we have certain cadets running around in special uniforms it could add animosity and too much pigheaded "gung-hoism".  I for one used to be like that when I first came back from HMRS for quite a while.  However, I see that the type of environment down there was very conducive to that behavior, and regret all things I may of said and/or done that did not truly uphold the Core Values.  Nevertheless, I truly value my experience at Hawk Mountain Ranger School, and would help any other cadet or senior who wanted to attend in background information and the process.

Thank you for letting voice my personal opinion, and hope to see some positive discussion.
1ST LT JOSEPH R PROVOST, CAP
CADET PROGRAMS OFFICER
LEADERSHIP OFFICER
EMERGENCY SERVICES OFFICER
DANIELSON CADET SQUADRON

Pace

Quote from: BillB on January 31, 2007, 03:22:54 PM
What exactly are the Hawk mountain AWARDS?  Is it the scarfs? whistles? patches?
Seems like there is a difference between what hawk uses as a uniform and what is AWARDED.
"Ranger" tabs and "medic" tabs are the ones that always used to cause all the heartburn for everyone else.  I remember back in 2005 as a fresh (3 week old) senior member at NBB, there were several cadets who were not so politely asked to take a knife and remove the ranger tab.

I hate to say it, but I always got off to a bad start with HMRS cadets at NBB (in 2005 and 2006).  Not because I have a problem with them, but nearly 100% of them came to NBB with an "I'm a Hawk grad and I know more than every one of you" attitude.
Lt Col, CAP

A.Member

I haven't seen anyone wear the beret outside of the activity so it's not a major issue to me.  I also haven't experienced the resulting attitudes.  Afterall, what's to have an attitude about?  You went to an airshow and parked some planes.  Not exactly the stuff that should build a big head.  That said, I obviously haven't participated in that event and perhaps I'm missing something.

Let's look on the bright side, at least we don't have a bunch of people wanting to come back and wear those silly blaze orange trucker's hats.  Now, then we'd have a real problem!  ;) >:D
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Hawk200

Quote from: A.Member on January 31, 2007, 04:24:00 PM
I haven't seen anyone wear the beret outside of the activity so it's not a major issue to me.  I also haven't experienced the resulting attitudes.  Afterall, what's to have an attitude about?  You went to an airshow and parked some planes.  Not exactly the stuff that should build a big head. 

I've seen one worn recently. Back in December, my unit had a Red Cross instructor come in, and teach the First Aid/Bloodborne Pathogen class. We spread the word around, and one other unit took us up on our offer. A senior came with six cadets.

One of them had the blue beret. He was a cadet LtCol, and pretty squared away. Not arrogant, kinda quiet and unassuming. I don't know if it was a case of maturity, but he had a quiet confidence, and would help out in a manner that was passing on experience, not lording it over anyone. He was very teamwork oriented, and obviously studied hard on what he learned.

On the flip side, I remember a senior in Alaska. Had his tabs and Hawk Mountain patch, and even if he didn't, you'd know he went anyway. Constant comments of "This is what we did in Ranger school" or "That's not how we did it at Hawk Mountain". Got kind of old after awhile.

I think that's the kind of problem people see with some of these school grads. Some show up with seriously inflated egos, and it isn't teamwork oriented.

I'm not picking on HMRS, or supporting NBB, just pointing out some of the examples of what I've seen, and apparently others have too. It's the occasional egos that pop up that give each program a bad name, not all the attendees. Some think that eliminating the associated items will cure the problem. I don't see that. Even if they don't wear them, these people will let you know.

Goes back to an old joke: "How do you know there's a fighter pilot at the party?" The answer: "He'll tell you." May seem funny, but it's an example of the human element, not a uniform one.

afgeo4

I'm so glad a cadet's ignorance of chain of command was rewarded by the national commander's ignorance of chain of command. Hey! We're all finally on the same page! Wrong book, but same page!
GEORGE LURYE

Pace

You know, in hindsight, I should have suggested different color nametapes and badges/insignia (white on navy blue or black would be nice).  That or recommended that the "distinctive NBB uniform" should have those colors and use that as a test run of the idea.  Hell, it probably would have gone through.
Lt Col, CAP