My friend is getting 2B-eed, help?

[arthurfreidheim]

Move on.

I get enough gossip on TMZ.

I was not here to gossip. I was here to find out what the correct use of the 2B process was. I am also not here for your amusement. Things have changed considerably and I will report back as to how this process worked out in a few days. <EOM>

[flyboy53]

Move on.

I get enough gossip on TMZ.

I was not here to gossip. I was here to find out what the correct use of the 2B process was. I am also not here for your amusement. Things have changed considerably and I will report back as to how this process worked out in a few days. <EOM>

Not that I want to be abrupt or rude, but if you have questions about the process, then research the reg in e-services and try not to get these fine gentlemen and women to comment about it. You are doing a dis-service to your friend by seeking an opinion in this forum. Also, you could be breaching the confidentiality that is meant to protect your friend.

Please know that the 2B process is meant to be as close to a legal process as the organization can allow without venturing into a formal legal arena. It is meant to protect your friend's rights as it is the organization. All of us who have ever had to intitiate a 2B or sit on a membership board will tell you it's NOT fun, so please drop this issue and move on....

[arthurfreidheim]

It was a sham, kangaroo court - he didn't have a chance. They set him up for failure, brought in high end lawyers, denied him representation, broke the regs, conducted everything in secret and CAP lost a good person for no reason. Stinks. And remember, it can happen to YOU.

[bflynn]

I wonder at the quality of leadership that has to pencil whip someone out of the group. 

[davidsinn]

It was a sham, kangaroo court - he didn't have a chance. They set him up for failure, brought in high end lawyers, denied him representation, broke the regs, conducted everything in secret and CAP lost a good person for no reason. Stinks. And remember, it can happen to YOU.

There is still the MARB. If reqs were broke then you need to contact the IG.

[bosshawk]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

[arthurfreidheim]

He has no further interest in CAP. He will find a better place to volunteer. What a waste. I am not sure I want to stay either.

[jeders]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

Funny thing you mention that, national just listed an updated MARB reg in eServices.

He has no further interest in CAP. He will find a better place to volunteer. What a waste. I am not sure I want to stay either.

I'm sorry to hear that. CAP unfortunately loses many good people over petty nothingness.

[JeffDG]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

CAPR 35-8
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_008_B5088B41928F7.pdf

Section 6:
b. A member or his/her designated representative must file an appeal of a final adverse membership action within 60 days of the date of the adverse membership action , or the effective date of the adverse membership action, whichever is later.

[arthurfreidheim]

We spent hours in that hearing. It just isn't worth it to him to appeal this any further. He wasn't about to spend thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to counter their lawyers. THier lawyers were there as prosecutors, not as facilitators. It was just a big waste of time to get rid of someone who could have been a useful ground team member. Ultimately, it was a personality conflict with the squadron leadership, nothing more. Squadron leadership was convinced that this person did not belong and then created evidence to support that conviction. No MARB, it's over.

[jeders]

I've never had to go through a 2b in any way at all, so maybe this more common than I would think. Is it normal for the convening/approving authority to bring in paid lawyers?

[Eclipse]

They were likely just Legal Officers.

[FW]

We spent hours in that hearing. It just isn't worth it to him to appeal this any further. He wasn't about to spend thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to counter their lawyers. THier lawyers were there as prosecutors, not as facilitators. It was just a big waste of time to get rid of someone who could have been a useful ground team member. Ultimately, it was a personality conflict with the squadron leadership, nothing more. Squadron leadership was convinced that this person did not belong and then created evidence to support that conviction. No MARB, it's over.

The MARB doesn't "retry" a case.  It reviews the written record to see if an "adverse membership action" was made correctly or because of the specific reasons listed in CAPR 35-8. 

It is a shame most members don't trust the body enough to make an appeal if they really feel the action was made improperly.  Then again, the MARB was changed after some unpopular decsions were made...

[bflynn]

It is a shame most members don't trust the body enough to make an appeal if they really feel the action was made improperly.  Then again, the MARB was changed after some unpopular decsions were made...

I don't think it's a matter of trust, it's a matter of values.

Doing some reading on this today and discovered the core values of CAP are reported to be Integrity, Service, Excellence and Respect.  These are the values we need to strive for.  These build on each other - because our leaders have Itegrity, they have Respect for members.  That build's member's desire for Service and results in executional excellence.

Whether it was the issue here or now - when the member's desire to serve is gone, it's because Integrity and Respect are missing in leadership and the organization is lessened...

Just some thoughts...

[arthurfreidheim]

CAP got the services of its members - high end lawyers who would have cost the organization thousands and thousands of dollars if they had been paid. Against that, my friend got to be by himself while the lawyers ran the show. They were judge and prosecutor, deciding for the board what the procedures would be and what evidence would be presented. If he wanted equal representation, he would have been thousands of dollars out of pocket. Highly unethical and unfair and there was nothing that he could do about it. Just not worth it to stay in an organization that has decided it is not your friend and wants you out.

You have NO rights as a CAP member. Not even the right to a fair hearing when you are thrown out. Not even a "thank you" for the time you served.

[Eclipse]

That's not even close to true, and since you have not given us the full details of the situation, what is the point of this?

[bflynn]

No, the deleted post wasn't necessary, but I think it needs to be questioned why it happened.

What would move a member to quit CAP and go out cursing other members?

[Eclipse]

The point here is that without full disclosure of details, it's an impossible discussion, and full disclosure is not appropriate, especially
in light of the fact that the actual member in question isn't even involved in this discussion.

[bflynn]

Eclipse, you're a walking encyclopedia, but you need to learn a whole lot about working with people...

[peter rabbit]

Eclipse, you're a walking encyclopedia, but you need to learn a whole lot about working with people...

Actually, Eclipse made a very valid point.