My friend is getting 2B-eed, help?

[MSG Mac]

check out CAPR 35-3 which is the regulation covering terminations

[a2capt]

Okay, he's still on the list, he won't tell you why, but he's not come- nor has he told you who said not to come, if someone said not to come.

A typical 2B starts with a suspension. There's some cardinal milestones time wise there, 30, 60 days ..  a suspension starts immediately with them not being visible in eServices.

So what you're describing so far isn't typical.

As for someone just not showing up after having a lot of presence? Sure. Happens often. Someone gets fed up with someone else, and says "screw this". Or their priorities change, or work hours change.

As for an official investigation, yes, I meant it. No one else is supposed to know. The complainant, the subject of the complaint, are not supposed to be talking about it.  The IG isn't supposed to be talking about it, except with those who are interviewed as part of the investigation. ... and the member is not visible, is pulled from the unit of record as soon as that starts.

So, they're visible, you know nothing- except that you're pretty sure there's a bone being picked.

No, this is't a normal "firing".  This is more like he's had it with someone and said screw it, and will let his membership lapse.

Again, as I asked, and you confirmed - he's still in the unit. No official IG investigation has been started,  so nothing from that angle is happening.

The unit water cooler gathering may wonder why so-and-so isn't present anymore, but again, if the process is working "right", it's not something they would know about unless either party has let the cat out of the bag. It's pretty obvious that isn't happening.

CAPR 35-3 - Membership Termination - PDF
CAPR 35-3 - Interim Change Letter 28-April, 2011 - PDF
CAPR 35-5 - Promotions - PDF

[lordmonar]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

[Persona non grata]

It aint official until you are thrown into the back of a black van. 

[JeffDG]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

As I read the reg, the person is suspended upon being served with the 2B until they either accept the 2B, the 30 days to appeal runs out, Approving Authority makes a final determination after a hearing.

[lordmonar]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

As I read the reg, the person is suspended upon being served with the 2B until they either accept the 2B, the 30 days to appeal runs out, Approving Authority makes a final determination after a hearing.

Read the reg.  The 2b is not even sent to NHQ until the apeals board ruleing is approved by the wing commander.  There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

Now...that does not mean the commander can't also suspend the member at the same time.

"SM Youscrewedup, you are hereby suspended from all CAP activities.  This suspention will last upto XX days (don't feel like looking up the reg).  Additionally, you are hereby notified of my intent to terminate your membership....."

But.....if you don't suspend the member....he is NOT suspended just because you want to 2b him.
One could argue that you can't suspend and 2b....because by definition he can't particpate in CAP acitivities.....and a hearing is a CAP activity....but that is splitting hairs.   

[JeffDG]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

[lordmonar]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

[JeffDG]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

Oh, and your hair splitting, the reg specifically addresses that by granting the member the right to appear at his/her own hearing, despite being suspended.

[SarDragon]

Suspended members remain in the system, but are not visible to the average user.

[lordmonar]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

Oh, and your hair splitting, the reg specifically addresses that by granting the member the right to appear at his/her own hearing, despite being suspended.

Dude...you win....I missed it.....no need to rub it in! 

[flyboy53]

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.

You need to stay out of it. Let your friend do what he has to do during the 2B process. If he's successful, fine. If not, you could have some addditional problems on your hands.

[arthurfreidheim]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

[arthurfreidheim]

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.

You need to stay out of it. Let your friend do what he has to do during the 2B process. If he's successful, fine. If not, you could have some addditional problems on your hands.

In other words, we cannot trust CAP to do the right thing. Sad.

[Eclipse]

No, in other words, your best bet is to emulate your namesake and simply stop.

[arthurfreidheim]

No, in other words, your best bet is to emulate your namesake and simply stop.

"Emulate your namesake" Huh?

[lordmonar]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

That is basic leadership.  Lt Snuff is late to work....you talk to him behind closed doors.  You don't broadcast it to the entire squadron that Lt Snuff was late and that he is going to get remedial training and probation. 

Now....if your friend wants to tell you what is going on....that is his decision.  He is completely free to do so.
However, your squadron commander and his staff should be keeping all this to themselves.  At the most they should have/could have announced that SM XXXXX is suspended until further notice.......this is important for general members to know....so they don't allow him to particpate in CAP activities or give him CAP assets.

I trust CAP.....to make things right if they need to.  I have seen individuals ignore what CAP wants them to do, ignores their duties as leader adn ignores what CAP wants them to do.  These can be very messy.  But as Eclipse says.....The only one who can supply you information is your freind.  If he is not giveing it out.....welll you can draw your own conclusions.

Yes....people get screwed.
But more often people bad people need to get screwed.

In my experince CAP ususually does the right thing.....sometimes by accident.....but there you go.

As a Squadron Commander.....I have to defend my fellow squadron commander......barring any evidence that they have no case, violated due process, or the punishment does not fit the crime.....I have to assume that they have cause.  If not.....well there's the appeal process and the MARB.

Both have successfully got demotions, terminations, and flying suspentions over turned.

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

[NCRblues]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Do I believe it is the best system ever? Nope...

But CAP has no obligation to give a public hearing. Membership (as we so often tell out cadets) in CAP is a privilege that can be taken away any time, not a right granted to you by anything.

If you want to pursue the reason your friend is getting the boot than go for it. But, do not be surprised when you start asking questions and you get the cold shoulder, or you get the boot as well. If you no longer wish to play our game, than thanks for your service. If you want to stay and play, than the best bet is to sit back and watch.

[arthurfreidheim]

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

. . .

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

I hear you. My friend has confided in me and has asked for my help. I feel that my integrity calls me to stand by a friend and fellow CAP member. He deserves to be able to defend himself with an adviser if he wants and I as his adviser should NOT have to worry in any way shape or form about reprisals against myself simply because I stood up to challenge the charges against a fellow CAP member. I don't want trouble, but if I have to choose between doing the right thing for a fellow squadron member and having a long CAP career, well...

[arthurfreidheim]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Do I believe it is the best system ever? Nope...

But CAP has no obligation to give a public hearing. Membership (as we so often tell out cadets) in CAP is a privilege that can be taken away any time, not a right granted to you by anything.

If you want to pursue the reason your friend is getting the boot than go for it. But, do not be surprised when you start asking questions and you get the cold shoulder, or you get the boot as well. If you no longer wish to play our game, than thanks for your service. If you want to stay and play, than the best bet is to sit back and watch.

And your signature line reads...

"A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures - and that is the basis of all human morality~ Winston Churchill"