My friend is getting 2B-eed, help?

[arthurfreidheim]

Hello,

I don't post on captalk, but this is a situation that I'd like to get some help on from other CAP members. So I am here to ask one question/post one topic.

My friend is a senior member and has been very active in CAP as a pilot, squadron officer, etc for the past few years. I noticed however that he has not been at the meetings for a long time, so I asked him about it. Long story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but it seems like the only reason for the action is that the CC or the deputy CC doesn't like him personally.

My question here is, what types of things would normally get one terminated for cause? I am pretty sure my friend has not committed any crimes, or done anything illegal, unethical or improper. There is an issue about his flying that he was put on a mandatory retraining schedule after there was some disagreement about runway usage at a glider event, and he seems to have been setup for a bogus form five checkride that was rigged for him to fail. I am myself very sad to see this all happening because I am sure my friend is a good guy and in fact is an asset to CAP.

So my question is, what sorts of things would be normally be valid reasons for a 2B action? (I already know what the reg says, I'd like some concrete examples from past actions)

Thanks for your help

[arthurfreidheim]

One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

[NIN]

The 2B process is in the regs for all to read.

If your friend was put on a corrective action plan due to a flying issue, then potentially he didn't meet the standards (there is interpretation what the standards are and who gets to set them, sure). 

Keep in mind: its always "this guy was out to get me" or "the checkride was rigged" or whatever.

With the scant information you've provided, nobody can say.  And this is probably not the forum to air anybody's dirty laundry.

Bottom line: if he has grounds for an appeal, then he should do so. If he has proof and documentation of his ability, performance, or whatever, he should supply that.

At the end of the day, however, it gets down to who can present the more logical case to the appeal board. If the wing says "2Lt Z did this, was verbally warned, did this, received a written reprimand and then did another thing, and was put on a retraining plan with the understanding that failure to meet standards would result in termination" and there is documentation, signatures, "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed, then his documentation better be something better than "I think the squadron commander doesn't like me.."

Because an appeal hearing will go like this.

"According to the Wing, you were warned on 18 October for not filing a flight plan on 1 October. Present in the room was the Wing DO, the Wing Chief of Staff and the State Director.  Do you remember this verbal warning?"

"Yes."

"And on 1 November, while flying the squadron plane N12345, did you fail to file a flight plan on that day??"

"Yes, I didn't file a flight plan..."

"I see.  And on 15 November, you were counseled in writing for not filing a flight plan on 1 November. Is this your signature on the bottom of the counseling form?"

"Yeah, but the squadron commander forced me to sign that."

"Does it say that you have 60 days to conduct an online AOPA flight plan course followed by a Form 5 recheck?"

"yeah, but the check pilot gave me a bogus form 5.."

"In what way?"

"Well, he had it out for me.."

"OK, the CAPF 5 that was filed as a result of that check ride indicates that you were substandard in the following areas. Preflight, flight plan, take off, runway selection and landing. According to this, you picked the wrong runway for the prevailing winds at the Podunk Airpatch.  Did you, in fact, land on Rwy 15 when you should have landed on Rwy 9?"

"Well, yeah, but the check pilot told me to do that..."

And so on and so forth.

Unless your friend can say "No, on 18 October it was just the Wing DO in the room.. Here is a copy of the wing's sign-in roster for the staff meeting that night.  According to this, the SD & the Chief of Staff were not at that meeting. Plus, Captains A and B, and Major C have stated that the Chief of Staff and SD were not present at HQ that day." and "You can clearly see from the published weather history for Podunk Airpatch that the wind was 330 at 10 the whole day. with no variations."  then it becomes "He said/She said" and whoever has better documentation is likely to sway an appeal.

But like I said, considering that none of the facts are in evidence here except for what you posted, it is hard to make *any* kind of determination based on one side of the story.

[arthurfreidheim]

Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

[PHall]

Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

When it comes to flying, yes they look very closely at your past record. They are entrusting you with a quarter million dollar aircraft and people's lives.

[arthurfreidheim]

Sorry, the "every little thing" they are looking at has nothing to do with his flying. More like failing to arrange a meeting on time with someone for some administrative function assigned to him. That sort of thing. With respect to flying other CAP instructors had no problems with him, just the one that did the checkride.

[NIN]

Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

OK, whether or not yoru friend is a "good guy" is pretty much immaterial.  Keep in mind: a guy's ability to be a "good guy" and his ability to safely keep the greasy side of the plane down and the shiny side up are likely two entirely different things, and one is in no way related to the other.

Yes, I have been thru a few of these, both on the "being 2B'd" side and the "2B'ing someone" side.  And overall, neither is pleasant, really.  And as our good friend Radioman likes to (frequently) point out, this isn't the military, so punitive punishment (including termination actions) are indicative of a failed leadership situation. (BTW, I vehemently disagree with that stance. Sometimes, you just have to ask someone to leave. Nicely or otherwise. Leadership notwithstanding)

That being said, a couple things ANYBODY involved in a termination action needs to be aware of and should do:

1) Familiarise yourself with the regulations.  The regulations pertaining to membership (39-2, as I recall), the Temination regulation (39-3?) and those pertaining to the matter causing the termination action.  If you're being 2B'd for a CPP violation, then you'd better be pretty conversant with 52-10. Chapter and verse.

2) Understand the appeal process and all the timelines thereunto pertaining. If the window to file the appeal is 30 days, your appeal better be on the appeal authority's desk well in advance of that window. Not like "noon the day of".  Understand who the appeal authority is, and how you (might) appeal an undesirable decision there, such as the MARB, if the situation warrants.

(Note: I can't tell you how many times the MARB has ruled "The termination action was completed in a timely fashion, but the member did not follow the regulations" or "This is not a matter that is up for appeal to the MARB per the regulations.  So *know* whether or not an appeal stops at the next echelon or can grow legs to the MARB.   IIRC, most appeals cannot, therefore it is important to know, else you're wasting EVERYBODY'S time.)

3) Have as much documentation as possible.  Write out your side of the situation in a clean, clear, neutral stance narrative:  "On 23 April, Captain Smith, while in the presence of C/A1C Snuffy and C/SSgt Bufftuck, told me to 'throw that box of BDU rags in the dumpster.'  I complied with Capt Smith's request. It was only afterward that I learned that the box was not actually BDU rags, but complete sets of BDUs.  I told Capt Smith I would like to go thru the box, and C/A1C Snuffy and C/SSgt Bufftuck volunteered to help, but Captain Smith was insistent that we throw this box into the dumpster immediately.  It was only after Major Disaster discovered the missing BDU box that Captain Smith suggested that I threw out the wrong box, or that I deliberately destroyed CAP property."

4) While it is helpful to have a friendly CAP member act as a neutral party, if they're not a legal officer, they might be seen as "sticking their nose in where it does not belong" and cause problems for themselves. Tread lightly here.

5) While I might not attend an appeal hearing _with_ an attorney, its probably not a bad idea to talk to one.

6) Under no circumstances should the potential terminee do things like "Well, I got all the seniors to quit, so there!" or "We've emailed all the parents to let them know what is *really* going on at the Podunk Cadet Squadron. You'll be sorry now!!"  That *always* ends badly. *always*

Bottom line: if you were doing something against the regs, were told to quit it, and did not, you're probably going to get terminated and it will be about as open and shut as it could be. Really.

[arthurfreidheim]

. . .

Bottom line: if you were doing something against the regs, were told to quit it, and did not, you're probably going to get terminated and it will be about as open and shut as it could be. Really.

Thanks, but I really can't imagine what this guy did that would rise to that level. We will see.

. . .
6) Under no circumstances should the potential terminee do things like "Well, I got all the seniors to quit, so there!" or "We've emailed all the parents to let them know what is *really* going on at the Podunk Cadet Squadron. You'll be sorry now!!"  That *always* ends badly. *always*

As an aside, if one were already out of CAP, how would this action end badly? Not that this would happen in this case, I am just wondering what you mean?



Not a fun time here, quite sad in fact. Thanks.

[NIN]

Sorry, the "every little thing" they are looking at has nothing to do with his flying. More like failing to arrange a meeting on time with someone for some administrative function assigned to him. That sort of thing. With respect to flying other CAP instructors had no problems with him, just the one that did the checkride.

In circumstances like this, it is helpful to point out where the terminee did the "wrong thing" with regard to, say, arranging a meeting.

So if 2Lt Z is the Squadron Testing Officer and he was supposed to inventory tests every 30 days, and did not (hahaha, how anachronistic.. "testing officer" ... *giggity*), then certainly there is a regulation behind that and will be pretty open and shut.  The testing regulations are now in play.  "Did you not inventory?" "No, I did not."  *bam* straightforward. 

(or maybe "After noting that 2Lt Z had not inventoried the testing materials in over 6 months, I instructed 2Lt Z to inventory the testing materials that night. He did not inventory the testing materials on 14 April, and infact, on that same night, told me he thought the test reg was "chicken****" and that perhaps I was suffering from a degree of anal retentiveness that was hereditary."  Gross insubordination AND failure to follow appropriately promulgated Civil Air Patrol regulations.  Time to say buh-bye to your fancy blue uniform...)

If 2Lt Z was supposed to call the local parade coordinator on 2 May and didn't call until 3 May, well, I can't think of a reg that got broken there.   Termination for cause is mighty thin there.  I would be surprised if the unit could point out a legitimate termination reason that would stick.

[Private Investigator]

Long story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

[lordmonar]

One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

I am very sad to hear that.

First off....there is an appeal process....and in recent years....AFIK it is very good and very above board.....if you have the fortitude to stick it out.

Second off....I would like to point out to you your first statement  "I don't understand the details."   I will not sugar coat anything....CAP is full of backstabbing, petting, lowlifes....who get into power and use it to screw other members.  And that is why we have the appeal system.  But.....I will also point out....that often where there is smoke there is fire.  As a commander....I don't have time to just 2b people for no reason.  So....there may be a lot of history that you are not aware of.....and should not be aware of....it is none of your buisness unless the member wants to tell you.

If you want to quit......I would first bring it up to your commander and maybe....he may explain the situation from his point of view....or not.  I would just suggest to you not to make any rash decisions based on one person's side of the story.

Have a good day.

[arthurfreidheim]

Long story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

I did ask him straight up. And got an hour on the phone. He is not really sure why this is happening so neither am I.

[Extremepredjudice]

Long story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

I did ask him straight up. And got an hour on the phone. He is not really sure why this is happening so neither am I.

I don't remember who said this, but "There are always at least 5 different sides to every story."

[arthurfreidheim]

One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

I am very sad to hear that.

First off....there is an appeal process....and in recent years....AFIK it is very good and very above board.....if you have the fortitude to stick it out.

Second off....I would like to point out to you your first statement  "I don't understand the details."   I will not sugar coat anything....CAP is full of backstabbing, petting, lowlifes....who get into power and use it to screw other members.  And that is why we have the appeal system.  But.....I will also point out....that often where there is smoke there is fire.  As a commander....I don't have time to just 2b people for no reason.  So....there may be a lot of history that you are not aware of.....and should not be aware of....it is none of your buisness unless the member wants to tell you.

If you want to quit......I would first bring it up to your commander and maybe....he may explain the situation from his point of view....or not.  I would just suggest to you not to make any rash decisions based on one person's side of the story.

Have a good day.

Yes, I am well aware of the politics that go on in CAP. Our wing has always seemed to be a very friendly supportive bunch and one that seemed above that sort of thing and that is why I am so discouraged. And our squadron also is a very close bunch trying to do the right thing with not much resources. So I am very frustrated and disappointed to find that there is some serious back stabbing going on here and that it is so extremely pointless - I would have expected the CC to be much much more tolerant and helpful if he did in fact see a problem. The member in question has about a full page of ES qualifications along with wing level assignments after only about five years in CAP. for the leadership to go to the lengths it apparently has gone to attack this guy really really bothers me. It is not anything like what I would have expected of him. This is completely out of the blue for me. It really seems to violate a lot of trust and a lot of the spirit of our ethics.

Another issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

[a2capt]

Another issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

Actually, that is the way it's supposed to work. ..and if it's working right, he does know more than he's telling you. If you login to eServices, is he still on your unit list? ... and you say you don't know, but you're pretty sure about "a few more days". There really is more to this.
OTOH, what *usually* happens is everyone knows about it, against the intent of the system. Because the politics are spreading, and the person at the center of it finds out more from the grapevine than the proper channels. That's when the stabbers are really at it.

[arthurfreidheim]

Another issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

Actually, that is the way it's supposed to work. ..and if it's working right, he does know more than he's telling you. If you login to eServices, is he still on your unit list? ... and you say you don't know, but you're pretty sure about "a few more days". There really is more to this.
OTOH, what *usually* happens is everyone knows about it, against the intent of the system. Because the politics are spreading, and the person at the center of it finds out more from the grapevine than the proper channels. That's when the stabbers are really at it.

Yes, he is still on the unit list. I can browse his rather lengthy list of achievements as well.

I am sorry, but I don't get that at all. From the perspective of the average Joe in the squadron, "Bob" has been there friend and squadron member in CAP for years, but noow that you mention it, they haven't seen him at the meetings for a long time. They thought "Bob" was just busy with his real life. He wasn't at the Christmas party either. Nothing is ever said about "Bob". Finally, they happen to notice that the squadron list doesn't have him on it anymore and they ask squadron CC about it and get a vague answer like, "Oh he left CAP and I can't say anything more about it."  So from the squadron member's viewpoint, a good friend just got booted out of CAP and no one knew anything about it (really in this case no one does know about it).

I just think that this is not the military, this is a group of civilian people who join together to do emergency service volunteer stuff. They have been together for years and they are operating under the assumption that everyone is a friend you can count on no matter what. A sudden unexplained expulsion for no clear reason sort of really ruins that camaraderie.

[MSG Mac]

The Unit Commander doesn't have to explain why the 2b action is being processed due to confidentialty concerns. Your friend can and obviously hasn't, because he does get copies of all the paperwork so that if he appeals he has all the same information.  Check out the MARB site on E-services to see examples of cases that have been appealed and the results. 

[Duke Dillio]

I might also point you to eServices.  Check out the tab that says Membership Action Review Board.  Here you can see a lot of "good" people and what happened to them and why in a general sense.  Might give you some pointers if you are looking for advice.

[NIN]

Another thing to keep in mind, sort of along the lines of what lordmonar said:  The termination process has a decent amount of checks and balances. 

While it certainly is possible for a number of officers to conspire against another (the squadron commander, the Group and/or Wing Commander, the appeal board president, etc), it tends to be not very likely, especially when the appeal winds up at Wing (due to the wider geographic area. Its easier to get an appeal board of "disinterested officers" who have little to no knowledge of the circumstances and the players in advance and can be a bit more objective.   A group-level appeal will often have people who are fairly "local" to the circumstances). That sort of thing tends to leave a fairly obvious trail.

That being said, and like I've said all along: if your friend did something that was clearly against regulations, it will be a fairly open and shut case.  If your friend was doing something he should not have been doing (even if there is not a clear regulation for that exact thing he was doing) and was told to cease and desist by his commander and either did not or outright refused to comply, then he's got another problem.  Termination proceedings can run a gamut of "clear-cut black&white violations of the regulations" to "Well, he'd been doing X, which while not prohibited, is certainly prejudicial to good order and discipline. He was told to knock off X, which he did not. He was warned, counseled, suspended and, now, terminated."

As most of us have said, there is really not enough data here to tell you "You should quit! Your buddy is getting railroaded!" or "Your buddy is not telling everything. Hold your horses."  I suspect it lies somewhere in-between.

[arthurfreidheim]

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.

[MSG Mac]

check out CAPR 35-3 which is the regulation covering terminations

[a2capt]

Okay, he's still on the list, he won't tell you why, but he's not come- nor has he told you who said not to come, if someone said not to come.

A typical 2B starts with a suspension. There's some cardinal milestones time wise there, 30, 60 days ..  a suspension starts immediately with them not being visible in eServices.

So what you're describing so far isn't typical.

As for someone just not showing up after having a lot of presence? Sure. Happens often. Someone gets fed up with someone else, and says "screw this". Or their priorities change, or work hours change.

As for an official investigation, yes, I meant it. No one else is supposed to know. The complainant, the subject of the complaint, are not supposed to be talking about it.  The IG isn't supposed to be talking about it, except with those who are interviewed as part of the investigation. ... and the member is not visible, is pulled from the unit of record as soon as that starts.

So, they're visible, you know nothing- except that you're pretty sure there's a bone being picked.

No, this is't a normal "firing".  This is more like he's had it with someone and said screw it, and will let his membership lapse.

Again, as I asked, and you confirmed - he's still in the unit. No official IG investigation has been started,  so nothing from that angle is happening.

The unit water cooler gathering may wonder why so-and-so isn't present anymore, but again, if the process is working "right", it's not something they would know about unless either party has let the cat out of the bag. It's pretty obvious that isn't happening.

CAPR 35-3 - Membership Termination - PDF
CAPR 35-3 - Interim Change Letter 28-April, 2011 - PDF
CAPR 35-5 - Promotions - PDF

[lordmonar]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

[Persona non grata]

It aint official until you are thrown into the back of a black van. 

[JeffDG]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

As I read the reg, the person is suspended upon being served with the 2B until they either accept the 2B, the 30 days to appeal runs out, Approving Authority makes a final determination after a hearing.

[lordmonar]

first.....If a member is suspended....do they disappear from the membership roster?

Second....Suspenstion is not, by the regs, part of a 2b process.

The member and wing are notified by letter.
If the member appeals, then wing takes over.
The 2b is NOT actually served and sent to national until after the board makes a decision....so NHQ (and E-services) does not come into it until after.

Now...often....what ever the person has done (or is suspected of doing) may kick out a suspention in addition to the 2b action.

The board hearing process is pretty straight foward.

The Appelant can call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, and present documents and written statements to support their case.

As I read the reg, the person is suspended upon being served with the 2B until they either accept the 2B, the 30 days to appeal runs out, Approving Authority makes a final determination after a hearing.

Read the reg.  The 2b is not even sent to NHQ until the apeals board ruleing is approved by the wing commander.  There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

Now...that does not mean the commander can't also suspend the member at the same time.

"SM Youscrewedup, you are hereby suspended from all CAP activities.  This suspention will last upto XX days (don't feel like looking up the reg).  Additionally, you are hereby notified of my intent to terminate your membership....."

But.....if you don't suspend the member....he is NOT suspended just because you want to 2b him.
One could argue that you can't suspend and 2b....because by definition he can't particpate in CAP acitivities.....and a hearing is a CAP activity....but that is splitting hairs.   

[JeffDG]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

[lordmonar]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

[JeffDG]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

Oh, and your hair splitting, the reg specifically addresses that by granting the member the right to appear at his/her own hearing, despite being suspended.

[SarDragon]

Suspended members remain in the system, but are not visible to the average user.

[lordmonar]

Read the reg...There is NOTHING in there reg that says the member is suspended at time of being sent the initial letter informing him/her of the termintion action.

OK...here goes:

7. Member's Appeal Action:
b. Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the
appellant will be considered in suspended status and will
not be authorized to participate in CAP activities or represent
the corporation in any capacity. The appellant will remain in
such status until the approving authority takes final action, the
termination action is withdrawn, or the appellant is otherwise
terminated.

That's pretty clear to me..."Upon notification of a proposed termination action, the appellant will be considered in suspended status..."

Okay...there you go....missed that.

Oh, and your hair splitting, the reg specifically addresses that by granting the member the right to appear at his/her own hearing, despite being suspended.

Dude...you win....I missed it.....no need to rub it in! 

[flyboy53]

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.

You need to stay out of it. Let your friend do what he has to do during the 2B process. If he's successful, fine. If not, you could have some addditional problems on your hands.

[arthurfreidheim]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

[arthurfreidheim]

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.

You need to stay out of it. Let your friend do what he has to do during the 2B process. If he's successful, fine. If not, you could have some addditional problems on your hands.

In other words, we cannot trust CAP to do the right thing. Sad.

[Eclipse]

No, in other words, your best bet is to emulate your namesake and simply stop.

[arthurfreidheim]

No, in other words, your best bet is to emulate your namesake and simply stop.

"Emulate your namesake" Huh?

[lordmonar]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

That is basic leadership.  Lt Snuff is late to work....you talk to him behind closed doors.  You don't broadcast it to the entire squadron that Lt Snuff was late and that he is going to get remedial training and probation. 

Now....if your friend wants to tell you what is going on....that is his decision.  He is completely free to do so.
However, your squadron commander and his staff should be keeping all this to themselves.  At the most they should have/could have announced that SM XXXXX is suspended until further notice.......this is important for general members to know....so they don't allow him to particpate in CAP activities or give him CAP assets.

I trust CAP.....to make things right if they need to.  I have seen individuals ignore what CAP wants them to do, ignores their duties as leader adn ignores what CAP wants them to do.  These can be very messy.  But as Eclipse says.....The only one who can supply you information is your freind.  If he is not giveing it out.....welll you can draw your own conclusions.

Yes....people get screwed.
But more often people bad people need to get screwed.

In my experince CAP ususually does the right thing.....sometimes by accident.....but there you go.

As a Squadron Commander.....I have to defend my fellow squadron commander......barring any evidence that they have no case, violated due process, or the punishment does not fit the crime.....I have to assume that they have cause.  If not.....well there's the appeal process and the MARB.

Both have successfully got demotions, terminations, and flying suspentions over turned.

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

[NCRblues]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Do I believe it is the best system ever? Nope...

But CAP has no obligation to give a public hearing. Membership (as we so often tell out cadets) in CAP is a privilege that can be taken away any time, not a right granted to you by anything.

If you want to pursue the reason your friend is getting the boot than go for it. But, do not be surprised when you start asking questions and you get the cold shoulder, or you get the boot as well. If you no longer wish to play our game, than thanks for your service. If you want to stay and play, than the best bet is to sit back and watch.

[arthurfreidheim]

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

. . .

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

I hear you. My friend has confided in me and has asked for my help. I feel that my integrity calls me to stand by a friend and fellow CAP member. He deserves to be able to defend himself with an adviser if he wants and I as his adviser should NOT have to worry in any way shape or form about reprisals against myself simply because I stood up to challenge the charges against a fellow CAP member. I don't want trouble, but if I have to choose between doing the right thing for a fellow squadron member and having a long CAP career, well...

[arthurfreidheim]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Do I believe it is the best system ever? Nope...

But CAP has no obligation to give a public hearing. Membership (as we so often tell out cadets) in CAP is a privilege that can be taken away any time, not a right granted to you by anything.

If you want to pursue the reason your friend is getting the boot than go for it. But, do not be surprised when you start asking questions and you get the cold shoulder, or you get the boot as well. If you no longer wish to play our game, than thanks for your service. If you want to stay and play, than the best bet is to sit back and watch.

And your signature line reads...

"A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures - and that is the basis of all human morality~ Winston Churchill"

[JeffDG]

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

. . .

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

I hear you. My friend has confided in me and has asked for my help. I feel that my integrity calls me to stand by a friend and fellow CAP member. He deserves to be able to defend himself with an adviser if he wants and I as his adviser should NOT have to worry in any way shape or form about reprisals against myself simply because I stood up to challenge the charges against a fellow CAP member. I don't want trouble, but if I have to choose between doing the right thing for a fellow squadron member and having a long CAP career, well...

So, have you actually taken the advice provided here and read the reg?

The option for a member to be represented is provided for therein.

The procedure for appealing a 2B is clearly defined.  If it is an inappropriate termination, then follow those procedures and appeal.  Should that appeal be unsuccessful, the member has the option of an appeal to the MARB.  Read the regs and follow them. 

[arthurfreidheim]

Guys -

Thanks for the advice even if it isn't what I had been hoping for. I am a bit stressed out by the whole thing and am going to stop reading here. I've got a packet of 2B charges to read through here and it isn't the way I ever wanted to see my time in CAP go. This is sort of a huge betrayal, sort of like I can no longer trust people I have been friends with for five years. Not fun.

Again thanks for the advice.

[arthurfreidheim]

JeffDG - I did, thanks.

[Private Investigator]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

No one said that.

What we said is that the details of this are not anyone's buisness but the member affected and the people actually involved in it.

That is basic leadership.  Lt Snuff is late to work....you talk to him behind closed doors.  You don't broadcast it to the entire squadron that Lt Snuff was late and that he is going to get remedial training and probation. 

Now....if your friend wants to tell you what is going on....that is his decision.  He is completely free to do so.
However, your squadron commander and his staff should be keeping all this to themselves.  At the most they should have/could have announced that SM XXXXX is suspended until further notice.......this is important for general members to know....so they don't allow him to particpate in CAP activities or give him CAP assets.

I trust CAP.....to make things right if they need to.  I have seen individuals ignore what CAP wants them to do, ignores their duties as leader adn ignores what CAP wants them to do.  These can be very messy.  But as Eclipse says.....The only one who can supply you information is your freind.  If he is not giveing it out.....welll you can draw your own conclusions.

Yes....people get screwed.
But more often people bad people need to get screwed.

In my experince CAP ususually does the right thing.....sometimes by accident.....but there you go.

As a Squadron Commander.....I have to defend my fellow squadron commander......barring any evidence that they have no case, violated due process, or the punishment does not fit the crime.....I have to assume that they have cause.  If not.....well there's the appeal process and the MARB.

Both have successfully got demotions, terminations, and flying suspentions over turned.

I can only say....let the process take place, if it is political.....do you really want to get invovled in the loosing side?  If you see anything unethical, against the regulations and/or law......you can always report it up the chain or to the IG.

+1 I concur

[Private Investigator]

Guys -

Thanks for the advice even if it isn't what I had been hoping for. I am a bit stressed out by the whole thing and am going to stop reading here. I've got a packet of 2B charges to read through here and it isn't the way I ever wanted to see my time in CAP go. This is sort of a huge betrayal, sort of like I can no longer trust people I have been friends with for five years. Not fun.

Again thanks for the advice.

It is part of life. Sometimes in CAP you have to dealt with things that you never expect. The member who gets killed in a senseless traffic accident, the nice guy who has terminal cancer, a hunting accident, the Senior Member couple who got divorced. Will a pizza party will ever be the same.

Its all part of the circle of life.

[Extremepredjudice]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Why not have judge judy preside?

[RogueLeader]

I seem to be hearing that somehow these proceedings need to be kept confidential by - of all people - the person being charged. What if he wants a public hearing? I see nothing in the regs that indicate that there is an expectation on CAP's part that the charged person has to "keep quiet". Seems very unfair.

Why not have judge judy preside?

I'd rather have Judge Millian from people's court.

[Eclipse]

I'd rather have Judge Millian from people's court.

The hottest judge on TV!

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

[Extremepredjudice]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

He said he wasn't coming back.  :angel:

[SarDragon]

And there have been 5+ posts since his last one with little additional relevance, hence my hint.

[Extremepredjudice]

And there have been 5+ posts since his last one with little additional relevance, hence my hint.

But sir, we have so much fun?

[arthurfreidheim]

Don't lock the thread, I will probably have more to write in a few days.

[Eclipse]

About what? 

You can't release any detail of this without violating CAP regulations, and further, you're not directly involved.

There's is no "light of day" aspect to these discussions because they can't be discussed to any meaningful conclusion without the
totality of the facts that will never be available in a public forum, nor should they be.

Leave the Sonata as is and move on.

[lordmonar]

About what? 

You can't release any detail of this without violating CAP regulations, and further, you're not directly involved.

There's is no "light of day" aspect to these discussions because they can't be discussed to any meaningful conclusion without the
totality of the facts that will never be available in a public forum, nor should they be.

Leave the Sonata as is and move on.

Yes he can....he is not in the IG or command chain...ergo has no responsibilty to keeping anything confidential.  If his freind invites him to the board or tells him about or someone else tells him about it......he is free to talk about.

I agree that he should move on...

[Eclipse]

He may not be in the chain, but he's bound by ethics and his oath to follow regulations, and that includes not revealing information about private matters that he may or may not become privy to.

[lordmonar]

He may not be in the chain, but he's bound by ethics and his oath to follow regulations, and that includes not revealing information about private matters that he may or may not become privy to.

I disagree...but there you go.

[Eclipse]

So members involved in an investigation are bound by confidentiality, but no one else is?

[lordmonar]

So members involved in an investigation are bound by confidentiality, but no one else is?

Basicly.

If you are part of the process.....i.e. an invistigator, a commander, someone the commander came to for advice (such as wing or squadron staff) you should keep it a close hold.

But of your friend is being 2b'ed and he tells you his side of the story......no reason that you can't talk about it.  If you were called into testify....no reason why you can't talk about your participation in the process.

Sure we should all refrain from gossip.....but that's a big difference between gossip and talking about a 2b action.

If we all held to the idea that you can't talk about it......then 90% of the threads on CT (including your posts and mine) whould be deleted.  This entire thread should be deleted.

[Private Investigator]

Move on.

I get enough gossip on TMZ.

[arthurfreidheim]

Move on.

I get enough gossip on TMZ.

I was not here to gossip. I was here to find out what the correct use of the 2B process was. I am also not here for your amusement. Things have changed considerably and I will report back as to how this process worked out in a few days. <EOM>

[flyboy53]

Move on.

I get enough gossip on TMZ.

I was not here to gossip. I was here to find out what the correct use of the 2B process was. I am also not here for your amusement. Things have changed considerably and I will report back as to how this process worked out in a few days. <EOM>

Not that I want to be abrupt or rude, but if you have questions about the process, then research the reg in e-services and try not to get these fine gentlemen and women to comment about it. You are doing a dis-service to your friend by seeking an opinion in this forum. Also, you could be breaching the confidentiality that is meant to protect your friend.

Please know that the 2B process is meant to be as close to a legal process as the organization can allow without venturing into a formal legal arena. It is meant to protect your friend's rights as it is the organization. All of us who have ever had to intitiate a 2B or sit on a membership board will tell you it's NOT fun, so please drop this issue and move on....

[arthurfreidheim]

It was a sham, kangaroo court - he didn't have a chance. They set him up for failure, brought in high end lawyers, denied him representation, broke the regs, conducted everything in secret and CAP lost a good person for no reason. Stinks. And remember, it can happen to YOU.

[bflynn]

I wonder at the quality of leadership that has to pencil whip someone out of the group. 

[davidsinn]

It was a sham, kangaroo court - he didn't have a chance. They set him up for failure, brought in high end lawyers, denied him representation, broke the regs, conducted everything in secret and CAP lost a good person for no reason. Stinks. And remember, it can happen to YOU.

There is still the MARB. If reqs were broke then you need to contact the IG.

[bosshawk]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

[arthurfreidheim]

He has no further interest in CAP. He will find a better place to volunteer. What a waste. I am not sure I want to stay either.

[jeders]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

Funny thing you mention that, national just listed an updated MARB reg in eServices.

He has no further interest in CAP. He will find a better place to volunteer. What a waste. I am not sure I want to stay either.

I'm sorry to hear that. CAP unfortunately loses many good people over petty nothingness.

[JeffDG]

There is a thing called a MARB and your friend can appeal to that entity.  I have no idea what Reg covers it, but it exists to review just such cases.  The big thing is to get on that appeal soon, as it has time constraints.

CAPR 35-8
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_008_B5088B41928F7.pdf

Section 6:
b. A member or his/her designated representative must file an appeal of a final adverse membership action within 60 days of the date of the adverse membership action , or the effective date of the adverse membership action, whichever is later.

[arthurfreidheim]

We spent hours in that hearing. It just isn't worth it to him to appeal this any further. He wasn't about to spend thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to counter their lawyers. THier lawyers were there as prosecutors, not as facilitators. It was just a big waste of time to get rid of someone who could have been a useful ground team member. Ultimately, it was a personality conflict with the squadron leadership, nothing more. Squadron leadership was convinced that this person did not belong and then created evidence to support that conviction. No MARB, it's over.

[jeders]

I've never had to go through a 2b in any way at all, so maybe this more common than I would think. Is it normal for the convening/approving authority to bring in paid lawyers?

[Eclipse]

They were likely just Legal Officers.

[FW]

We spent hours in that hearing. It just isn't worth it to him to appeal this any further. He wasn't about to spend thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer to counter their lawyers. THier lawyers were there as prosecutors, not as facilitators. It was just a big waste of time to get rid of someone who could have been a useful ground team member. Ultimately, it was a personality conflict with the squadron leadership, nothing more. Squadron leadership was convinced that this person did not belong and then created evidence to support that conviction. No MARB, it's over.

The MARB doesn't "retry" a case.  It reviews the written record to see if an "adverse membership action" was made correctly or because of the specific reasons listed in CAPR 35-8. 

It is a shame most members don't trust the body enough to make an appeal if they really feel the action was made improperly.  Then again, the MARB was changed after some unpopular decsions were made...

[bflynn]

It is a shame most members don't trust the body enough to make an appeal if they really feel the action was made improperly.  Then again, the MARB was changed after some unpopular decsions were made...

I don't think it's a matter of trust, it's a matter of values.

Doing some reading on this today and discovered the core values of CAP are reported to be Integrity, Service, Excellence and Respect.  These are the values we need to strive for.  These build on each other - because our leaders have Itegrity, they have Respect for members.  That build's member's desire for Service and results in executional excellence.

Whether it was the issue here or now - when the member's desire to serve is gone, it's because Integrity and Respect are missing in leadership and the organization is lessened...

Just some thoughts...

[arthurfreidheim]

CAP got the services of its members - high end lawyers who would have cost the organization thousands and thousands of dollars if they had been paid. Against that, my friend got to be by himself while the lawyers ran the show. They were judge and prosecutor, deciding for the board what the procedures would be and what evidence would be presented. If he wanted equal representation, he would have been thousands of dollars out of pocket. Highly unethical and unfair and there was nothing that he could do about it. Just not worth it to stay in an organization that has decided it is not your friend and wants you out.

You have NO rights as a CAP member. Not even the right to a fair hearing when you are thrown out. Not even a "thank you" for the time you served.

[Eclipse]

That's not even close to true, and since you have not given us the full details of the situation, what is the point of this?

[bflynn]

No, the deleted post wasn't necessary, but I think it needs to be questioned why it happened.

What would move a member to quit CAP and go out cursing other members?

[Eclipse]

The point here is that without full disclosure of details, it's an impossible discussion, and full disclosure is not appropriate, especially
in light of the fact that the actual member in question isn't even involved in this discussion.

[bflynn]

Eclipse, you're a walking encyclopedia, but you need to learn a whole lot about working with people...

[peter rabbit]

Eclipse, you're a walking encyclopedia, but you need to learn a whole lot about working with people...

Actually, Eclipse made a very valid point.

[bflynn]

yes, of course he does.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock.Tick-tock.Tick-tock.

The OP has been suspended, rendering further debate moot.

[JC004]

Tick-tock.Tick-tock.Tick-tock.
...