UDF

[ElectricPenguin]

What is the purpose of UDF? DO you need that for GTM??? Why isn't UDF part of GTM?

[davidsinn]

1. To field more DFs with less people in civilized areas.
2. No
3. Good question

[ol'fido]

If your GT is not fully trained in DF,you are doing it wrong.

[EMT-83]

U as in Urban. DF without the running around in the woods.

Compare the task guides.

[Spaceman3750]

UDF includes all DF-related tasks from the GTM3 SQTR. In that respect, GTMs and UDFs get the same training.

UDF gets a bit more map training that GTMs get at level 2. That's because GTM3 has a bunch of field-oriented tasks.

In short, both GTM and UDF can DF, it's just who does the mapwork and the environment in which you operate (UDF being restricted to urban areas).

[lordmonar]

Well....if I were god.....UDF would be like MS for aircrew.....and there would only be one GTM.

[davidsinn]

Well....if I were god.....UDF would be like MS for aircrew.....and there would only be one GTM.

Like this?

[lordmonar]

Yep.

[Private Investigator]

What is the purpose of UDF? DO you need that for GTM??? Why isn't UDF part of GTM?

In downtown Las Vegas you can follow the street signs to the ELT in the pawn shop. Afterwards have that $12 sundae at Circus Circus instead of manning up on an expired MRE in a stand of poison oak.

[JeffDG]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

[lordmonar]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

[JeffDG]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

[davidsinn]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

Since every aircrew that does a search has an MP then your DF needs are covered...

[JeffDG]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

Since every aircrew that does a search has an MP then your DF needs are covered...

So, you land, the MP gets out and the MO and MS hang out at the plane?  Without a UDF, they're not qualified to leave the aircraft in search of a DF target.

[lordmonar]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

Since every aircrew that does a search has an MP then your DF needs are covered...

So, you land, the MP gets out and the MO and MS hang out at the plane?  Without a UDF, they're not qualified to leave the aircraft in search of a DF target.

Really....the MS and MO aren't qualified to walk around the airport.  Talk about being an assinine rules monger 

[lordmonar]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

What you carrying three DF units on an airplane?

[davidsinn]

UDF is for people who want to be able to do DF stuff in an urban area, and have no real interest in going out in the boonies.

Lots of aircrew members like UDF because they can disembark from the plane and DF an ELT on the airport to whichever hanger the guy parked in after the hard landing!

They can do that with out UDF.

MP task O-2007 Locate and Deactivate an ELT on the ground

That's the MP.  Not the MO, MS or AP.

Since every aircrew that does a search has an MP then your DF needs are covered...

So, you land, the MP gets out and the MO and MS hang out at the plane?  Without a UDF, they're not qualified to leave the aircraft in search of a DF target.

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

[NCRblues]

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

Try it at airventure, with 15,000 A/C on the ramp plus hundreds of metal buildings and cars 

[Eclipse]

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

As a GTL, your team's abilities drop to the lowest common denominator of your members, this is the disadvantage of the three-tiered system.

As to aircrews doing ground searching, only the MP has any qualification for doing DF, and it should be a pretty basic search, because he has no "team"
as defined by the UDF minimums, and no one with him in the airplane has any qualification in that regard (unless the do, separate from their aircrew cert).

This is why we should require all aircrew members to also be UDF, or include the important UDF tasks in all the aircrew ratings. 

People like to make things up for expediency, without thinking of the consequences down the road.

"Mr. Scanner, you have requested benefits based on the injuries sustained when the L-Per you were carrying struck an electric wire while you
were prosecuting an ELT search.  When were you trained in the use of that device and who certified your abilities?"

"Well, on Captalk they said I didn't need any training..."

[davidsinn]

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

As a GTL, your team's abilities drop to the lowest common denominator of your members, this is the disadvantage of the three-tiered system.

As to aircrews doing ground searching, only the MP has any qualification for doing DF, and it should be a pretty basic search, because he has no "team"
as defined by the UDF minimums, and no one with him in the airplane has any qualification in that regard.

This is why we should require all aircrew members to also be UDF, or include the important UDF tasks in all the aircrew ratings. 

People like to make things up for expediency, without thinking of the consequences down the road.

"Mr. Scanner, you have requested benefits based on the injuries sustained when the L-Per you were carrying struck an electric wire while you
were prosecuting an ELT search.  When were you trained in the use of that device and who certified your abilities?"

"Well, on Captalk they said I didn't need any training..."

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The MP does the DF. The other two are just along for a walk. You don't need two people trained to use the DF when there is only one device to use. The majority of UDF training is useless to an aircrew that can't even leave the airfield.

[lordmonar]

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

As a GTL, your team's abilities drop to the lowest common denominator of your members, this is the disadvantage of the three-tiered system.

You know this is absolute BS.  The rule on "lowest denominator" is based on a different model of the "three tiered" system.  According to the reg the only differece between GTM 1,2,&3 is how long they are equipted to spend in the field....not on "skills know" which the SQRTS are built on.

Because I got a GTM3 trainee....I can't use a map?  I can't work with canine units, I can't set up an LZ?   That concept is just total BS.

As to aircrews doing ground searching, only the MP has any qualification for doing DF, and it should be a pretty basic search, because he has no "team"
as defined by the UDF minimums, and no one with him in the airplane has any qualification in that regard.

but that does not mean the MS and MO have to sit in the airplane. 

This is why we should require all aircrew members to also be UDF, or include the important UDF tasks in all the aircrew ratings.

Or add O-2007 to MS.  Requiring UDF for air crew is a little over kill.

People like to make things up for expediency, without thinking of the consequences down the road.

"Mr. Scanner, you have requested benefits based on the injuries sustained when the L-Per you were carrying struck an electric wire while you
were prosecuting an ELT search.  When were you trained in the use of that device and who certified your abilities?"

"Well, on Captalk they said I didn't need any training..."

"Sir my MO showed me how to use it.   Please pay."

I can ask for beniefits based on tripping on my shoe laces getting into the air plane....where is my walking certifiate.

[JeffDG]

Really? Is walking around an airfield that difficult? You forget that an airfield is the start and end point of a flight so it's no different than walking to the FBO to take a leak... Using your logic I as a GTL can't lead a team because not everyone on the team has the same qualifications as me?

As a GTL, your team's abilities drop to the lowest common denominator of your members, this is the disadvantage of the three-tiered system.

As to aircrews doing ground searching, only the MP has any qualification for doing DF, and it should be a pretty basic search, because he has no "team"
as defined by the UDF minimums, and no one with him in the airplane has any qualification in that regard.

This is why we should require all aircrew members to also be UDF, or include the important UDF tasks in all the aircrew ratings. 

People like to make things up for expediency, without thinking of the consequences down the road.

"Mr. Scanner, you have requested benefits based on the injuries sustained when the L-Per you were carrying struck an electric wire while you
were prosecuting an ELT search.  When were you trained in the use of that device and who certified your abilities?"

"Well, on Captalk they said I didn't need any training..."

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The MP does the DF. The other two are just along for a walk. You don't need two people trained to use the DF when there is only one device to use. The majority of UDF training is useless to an aircrew that can't even leave the airfield.

For the most part, lots of MOs carry handheld air-band VHF, so do most pilots.  That's two pieces of DF gear on the plane.  Depending on who the scanner is you've got a third.

[Eclipse]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The MP does the DF. The other two are just along for a walk. You don't need two people trained to use the DF when there is only one device to use. The majority of UDF training is useless to an aircrew that can't even leave the airfield.

Under what auspices? 

Once they are on the ground, they have no business doing anything.  Absent the plane that brought them, they'd have no business being there to start with, and UDF teams are a minimum of two members, no more than one trainee.

[Eclipse]

Because I got a GTM3 trainee....I can't use a map?  I can't work with canine units, I can't set up an LZ?   That concept is just total BS.

I don't disagree - take it up with the curriculum committee.

but that does not mean the MS and MO have to sit in the airplane. 

Of course not.  They can also get out of the plane and stand next to it, do an "over water drop" in the FBO, or call mission base on their cell phones and explain why they haven't made a radio contact in over an hour because both front seats were on ATC.

[JeffDG]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The MP does the DF. The other two are just along for a walk. You don't need two people trained to use the DF when there is only one device to use. The majority of UDF training is useless to an aircrew that can't even leave the airfield.

Under what auspices? 

Once they are on the ground, they have no business doing anything.  Absent the plane that brought them, they'd have no business being there to start with, and UDF teams are a minimum of two members, no more than one trainee.

Locating and silencing an ELT on the ground is part of the training required for an MP.

[Eclipse]

Locating and silencing an ELT on the ground is part of the training required for an MP.

Yes.  Mission Pilot.  We're talking about the other two guys.

[davidsinn]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The MP does the DF. The other two are just along for a walk. You don't need two people trained to use the DF when there is only one device to use. The majority of UDF training is useless to an aircrew that can't even leave the airfield.

Under what auspices? 

An airfield is the natural environment for an aircrew when not flying...

Once they are on the ground, they have no business doing anything.  Absent the plane that brought them, they'd have no business being there to start with, and UDF teams are a minimum of two members, no more than one trainee.

An aircrew DFing on an airfield is not a UDF team. It is the MP doing what he is trained to do and the rest following along using the buddy system to be safe.

Locating and silencing an ELT on the ground is part of the training required for an MP.

Yes.  Mission Pilot.  We're talking about the other two guys.

I don't know what it's like over in ILWG but walking around an airfield in INWG is not rocket science.

[Eclipse]

We're not talking about "walking around an airfield", are we?  We're talking about prosecuting a search in an organization that doesn't let you key a radio without special training.

I'm in no way justifying the state of the curriculum, it's troubled in all sorts of different areas, but we should not compound the issues b y
always interpreting things in the most expedient, benevolent way, that won't force the fix, nor help if things go South.

It all looks great on paper until people are sitting in front of lawyers.

[lordmonar]

We're not talking about "walking around an airfield", are we?  We're talking about prosecuting a search in an organization that doesn't let you key a radio without special training.

I'm in no way justifying the state of the curriculum, it's troubled in all sorts of different areas, but we should not compound the issues b y
always interpreting things in the most expedient, benevolent way, that won't force the fix, nor help if things go South.

It all looks great on paper until people are sitting in front of lawyers.

Spent 20 year living in that zone.....I ain't got time for it....there are mission's brewing. 
A) The regulations are not going to get fixed.
B) I'll stand up to the lawers.

[Eclipse]

Yeah, yeah, "people dying in the streets", etc., etc. 

There's surely a joke in here somewhere about lawyers being zombie proof as a food source, but I'm not going there...

[RogueLeader]

Yeah, yeah, "people dying in the streets", etc., etc. 

There's surely a joke in here somewhere about lawyers being zombie proof as a food source, but I'm not going there...

I think you just did.

[Eclipse]

Shhh! Ned's around here somewhere and I'm pretty sure he's friends with some lawyers or something...

[ol'fido]

Because I got a GTM3 trainee....I can't use a map?  I can't work with canine units, I can't set up an LZ?   That concept is just total BS.

I don't disagree - take it up with the curriculum committee.

but that does not mean the MS and MO have to sit in the airplane. 

Of course not.  They can also get out of the plane and stand next to it, do an "over water drop" in the FBO, or call mission base on their cell phones and explain why they haven't made a radio contact in over an hour because both front seats were on ATC.

And remember.....

This is the curriculum committee that requires UDF to be signed off on  "Task O-0218: Locate own position on a map using terrain association" without requiring them to have "Task O-0210: Identify topographic symbols on a map." Kind of hard to do the former without knowing the latter even if it's an air chart or road map.

And don't assume that everyone can read a road map. Was on a joint MO/IL practice mission out of St. Louis Regional in Bethalto, IL back in the 90's. MO aircrew informed us that the target was at the intersection of Hwy 140 and Hwy 22. Looked and looked on the map for Hwy 22. 140 was easy we came in on it. We finally figured out that it was at the intersection of Hwy 140 and Hwy 127. The aircrew was reading the between towns road mileage on their IL roadmap. It was 22 miles from Greenville to the next town north.

[Private Investigator]

And don't assume that everyone can read a road map. Was on a joint MO/IL practice mission out of St. Louis Regional in Bethalto, IL back in the 90's. MO aircrew informed us that the target was at the intersection of Hwy 140 and Hwy 22. Looked and looked on the map for Hwy 22. 140 was easy we came in on it. We finally figured out that it was at the intersection of Hwy 140 and Hwy 127. The aircrew was reading the between towns road mileage on their IL roadmap. It was 22 miles from Greenville to the next town north.

ROFLMAO   :clap: