Lets make all CAP senior members follow the same program

[lordmonar]

a little more difficult for a very small section of new members.

Try 25-50%.  If it were only a very small section of new members I would agree with you.  If you know someone with access to commanders dashboard at your wing level I bet you will find something similar.

Well, I should say that 25-50% of those in the grade of Capt. or above.  Without going through everyone's individual record its impossible to tell how many of the 1st Lts. have obtained a tech rating and all the 2nd Lts. have Level 1. 

But, in my Wing 47% of Captains have not completed the appropriate PD level, 23% of Majors have not, and 34% of Lt. Cols. have not.

Look at all of them together and 35% of those in Captain or above in my Wing have not completed the PD appropriate to their grade.  Seems like it is more than a very small section.   

How many of them are retired/former military?

That is the elephant in the room.  You may be grousing about CFI's/lawyers/CPA/Doctors.....but those bad numbers are all about retired military officers! 

"You can't be a CAP Lt Col because you have not gone to SLC, CLC, RSC and done about a years worth of OJT.  What you spend four years at the USAF academy!  Sorry that does not mean anything to me!"

Do you want to see how many people would not joing because of that!  I already know of seveal SM's who refuse to wear CAP rank at all because they are not allowed to wear the Col birds!

Sorry General......you have to start as a SMWOG just like that 18 year old kid poping zits over there.....oh.....and here is Capt Spaatz....he just turned 21 and he's a Capt because he earned his Spaatz award!..........Hey.....where you going?  I still need to finger print you and and get your check!"

Like I said....make sure you understand the problem before you propose sollutions.

Here is the solution to the "problem"......require anyone with an advanced promotion 1 year per level to complete the required training or get demoted to an appropriate grade.

USAF retired Lt Col has 2 years to complet his Level 2, and additional year to complete his Level 3 and one more for his Level IV.
If he completes Level 2 in six months....he still has thre and half years to complete his Level IV.

Simple....easy.....and it fixes the "problem" of people with advanced promotions not having CAP PD levels to match.

[lordmonar]

Lord, you're pretending like you're new to CAP, seriously.  You're characterizing things they way they should be.

The "problem" is that most of the advanced and mission-skills appointments are made with no expectation of performance,
and in far too many of the cases these people stagnate at their level or worse.  Further, when random commanders
try to raise the bar and do things right, maybe even yanking grade of non-performers, the wailing and gnashing of teeth
is deafening.

It cheapens the situation for everyone involved, and if it's meaningless.  But worse, we give grade to the perceived
"special", while the regular shmoes doing the real work of the squadrons sit back and watch the new guys advance ahead of
them, before doing anything.  That's not a problem?  I can tell you that this has been indicated more than once
as a retention factor - you've got a commander in one unit holding everyone to an equal standard, and members can just
walk to the next unit and get bumped, then come back.

One would assume that we could see a drop between 25 and 50 percent if we did not offer these promotions.

We both know that's not true - in a lot of cases it's just a CC waiving his mighty pen, or a member grade-trolling.

Okay....now we are begging to see the real problem.....YOU think you are being cheated because some CFI gets to be captain right off the back and you had to work for it.

That's life.....let me tell you a story about the time I was a TSgt teching this 2d Lt his job.....it was hilarious.
If you got a problem with commanders not being standard....then the fix is that you become a group/wing commander and fire the slobs.
Don't take tools away from people because other people misuse them.

[Eclipse]

Don't compare CAP to the military or any other monetarily compensated organization - they simply don't fit.  Neither the nonsense about a technician
teaching his manager about his job.  The manager's job isn't to turn the wrench, it's to manage the wrench turners.  Something the wrenchers always forget when telling the "I taught my boss his job story.".  Sometimes the wrenchers make more money than the managers, too.

The grousing isn't about people who come in and kick butt, it's about the majority who come in and perform exactly the same as everyone else or do less, yet still wear the same insignia.  A CFI who doesn't fly for CAP is of no more relative value than anyone else in the unit, yet when they are given their tracks ahead of others because they are CFI's, where's the "equality among volunteers?"  In those cases, people have a right to whine.

And this idea that former military automatically can magically save CAP just isn't true in the reality of CAP operations.  I certainly haven't seen it, because the plain fact is that your average former Major isn't going to come into CAP and assume a Group command day (or even year) one.  And all that training
and leadership ability is geared and focused on people who are legally bound to comply with orders.

To their credit, most of the best former military I have worked with in CAP have deferred accepting their commensurate grade exactly because they understand the situation and preferred to come by it organically, or at least do something before pinning on those oaks.

We've actually had some what of an issue, locally, with current and former military people joining up and then believing their grade and previous
experience means something, before acquiring even a basic understanding of CAP, then they stomp toes all over the place and can't understand
what "our" problem is.

When I look at a CAP Major with a L3 or L4 on his chest, I have an expectation of some level of knowledge, experience and ability.  When I see a
CAP major with only military ribbons, or just a level 1, all I know is he was in the military, and I have no expectations he won't be just as
"useful" as the 4 SMWOG's he joined up with.

He might know how to wear his hat, but he sure won't have a clue about cadet promotions or the WBP.

[RiverAux]

Patrick, can you really say that it is a GOOD thing for CAP overall and the perception of the abilities of CAP officers, both within the organization and by others, that up to half our officers in the higher grades do not have a common core of knowledge and training? 

Can you argue that it is good for CAP for there to be field grade officers in particular who have no CAP training beyond level 1? 

While the lack of such a common core certainly hasn't caused the apocalypse, there is no evidence that it helps. 

I think that whenever there is an exception to the general rule, that the bar for granting such an exception should be quite high with a very obvious demonstrated need.  As far as I can tell, these special appointments are based on someone's assumption that they may help recruit people into CAP and thats it. 

In the real military such exceptions to the normal officer development process are EXCEEDINGLY rare.  They certainly don't approach 25-50% of the officer corps.   

[RogueLeader]

I replied "no" because I think that they are useful. I would like to make changes, such as removing time in grade, but make them do the appropriate training such as sls, obc, etc. I would still give military equivalence.

Remove TIG?

You could be a Lt. Col. in a year, 2 max.

Only if they have an appointment to Lt Col. If they have a cfi and can thus be a capt., they have to complete all pd achievements, just no TIG requirement.

[Eclipse]

I replied "no" because I think that they are useful. I would like to make changes, such as removing time in grade, but make them do the appropriate training such as sls, obc, etc. I would still give military equivalence.

Remove TIG?

You could be a Lt. Col. in a year, 2 max.

Only if they have an appointment to Lt Col. If they have a cfi and can thus be a capt., they have to complete all pd achievements, just no TIG requirement.

OK, that's reasonable, and doable.

[AirDX]

Well, I was one of those instant captains (though it was 8 months or so after I joined that it kicked in).  It was a factor in getting me back in.  I have also completed all the PD, and I'm marking time awaiting Major.

But let's talk about all these other folks who enter at SM and climb the ranks the old fashioned way, these founts of CAP knowledge.

Uh, NOT.

I'll tell you what I run across often as not, is someone who's joined CAP, sat on their hands for 6 months, got 2LT.  After six months as assistant mopery officer, their friend Billy Bob signs them off as a technician, and with a year TIG, bam! 1LT.  They actually do the BOC, sleep through an SLS, sit on their hands for 18 more months, and BAM! Captain!  Since they don't really do anything for the squadron, they have lots of time to look for a CLC to sleep through, and Billy Bob will pencil whip a senior rating for them.  3 more years of paying dues and bam! they are now a major.

There are plenty of them out there, folks, you all know it, so don't pretend that Level III or IV means someone actually knows something.

Observing performance is the only way to tell if someone's grade and their capabilities match.  It's readily apparent, as you all know.

If the system's broke, it's broke on a lot of levels, not just advanced promotions. 

[Duke Dillio]

So for the guy that comes in as a nothing and sits on his hands until he is a Captain, where is his leadership?  It is up to his mentor or commander to make sure that he is actually doing something.  Where are those guys, sitting on their hands too?

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I've seen these types of officers.  Like the Maj or Lt Col (I forget which) who was teaching a uniform class at an SLS, took off his lightweight blue jacket and asked what was wrong with his uniform.  (It was an AF shortsleeve blue uniform BTW).  The answer that he thought was that he was wearing the wing patch on the wrong shoulder...  Then, his students pointed out that his ribbons were upside down (military on bottom, CAP on top), his belt was off the gig line, his shoes weren't shined, one of his epaulets was on backwards, etc. etc. etc.

The problem that I see is motivation.  Some of these officers are not motivated enough to go through all the "hassle" of going to all of those classes and doing that "other stuff."  As leaders, we should be the ones providing that motivation either by not making it sound so bad (I am guilty of that as well...) or by giving them an alternative to not getting it done (i.e. perhaps they should find somewhere else to spend their time).

Just my opinion.  YMMV.  FLAME ON!!!

[AirDX]

So for the guy that comes in as a nothing and sits on his hands until he is a Captain, where is his leadership?  It is up to his mentor or commander to make sure that he is actually doing something.  Where are those guys, sitting on their hands too?

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I've seen these types of officers.  Like the Maj or Lt Col (I forget which) who was teaching a uniform class at an SLS, took off his lightweight blue jacket and asked what was wrong with his uniform.  (It was an AF shortsleeve blue uniform BTW).  The answer that he thought was that he was wearing the wing patch on the wrong shoulder...  Then, his students pointed out that his ribbons were upside down (military on bottom, CAP on top), his belt was off the gig line, his shoes weren't shined, one of his epaulets was on backwards, etc. etc. etc.

The problem that I see is motivation.  Some of these officers are not motivated enough to go through all the "hassle" of going to all of those classes and doing that "other stuff."  As leaders, we should be the ones providing that motivation either by not making it sound so bad (I am guilty of that as well...) or by giving them an alternative to not getting it done (i.e. perhaps they should find somewhere else to spend their time).

Just my opinion.  YMMV.  FLAME ON!!!

No flames here - you are exactly right, where is the leadership?  The answer is... corrupt.

Personally, I'd make all promotions brevet pending meeting with a murder board.  For 2nd LT you've already had a summary discussion with a unit officer as part of Level I, that's good enough.  For 1st LT, meet with a three-member board from your squadron.

For Captain, meet a three-member board from another squadron.
Major, three-member board from group or wing if no group structure.
Lt Col, three-member board from wing.

Make sure the boards include a member rated in the same specialty track as high or higher as the individual coming up before the board.

Give people two years to meet a board or they revert to their permanent rank.  For geographically dispersed squadrons, members could meet their board on a conference call - though showing up in person in an appropriate uniform (blues or the white aviator combo) is preferred.

Just another idea!

[lordmonar]

Patrick, can you really say that it is a GOOD thing for CAP overall and the perception of the abilities of CAP officers, both within the organization and by others, that up to half our officers in the higher grades do not have a common core of knowledge and training? 

Can you argue that it is good for CAP for there to be field grade officers in particular who have no CAP training beyond level 1? 

While the lack of such a common core certainly hasn't caused the apocalypse, there is no evidence that it helps. 

I think that whenever there is an exception to the general rule, that the bar for granting such an exception should be quite high with a very obvious demonstrated need.  As far as I can tell, these special appointments are based on someone's assumption that they may help recruit people into CAP and thats it. 

In the real military such exceptions to the normal officer development process are EXCEEDINGLY rare.  They certainly don't approach 25-50% of the officer corps.

I can argue....as we all have....CAP rank means nothing.
When SMWOG can be a unit commander.  When CAP captains are "over" CAP Lt Cols, Cols, BGen and MGens.
When position is NOT determined by grade.

I have argued that YES those who have been given adavanced grades should be required to "make up" the training in a resonable period of time.
I have argued that we should do away with the grade system as it stands and everyone should go to a Flight Officer grade system.

But unless you want to change the core problem with CAP grade.......anything else you do is just going to be white wash.  It is not going to fix the real problem.

You think that advanced grade does not help.....I disagree.
Former military personnel are more likely join then not.....because they can keep their old rank.
Personnel with advanced skills are more likely to join and use those skills if you give them something for it.

Either way....I don't see any down side....not really.  Because I don't care what rank you wear on your collar....I care about what you do and how you do it.

[flyboy53]

I think the special appointment stuff has gotten way out of hand and should only be limited to those special ones like doctors, lawyers and nurses...or former cadets. I'm not even in favor of AEOs coming in and becoming instant captains.

Giving rank away like CAP does, only sends the wrong message to those who come in at the bottom and are trying to progress.

And by the way, I'm in favor of a senior member NCO program....but I want something that means something.

[JeffDG]

Alright...so I'm confused.

On one hand our PD program is incredibly valuable.  It's a tremendous value to our membership.

On the other hand, the only way to make people use it is to force them to do so...

So, which is it?  Is it a value to members, who will take it to better themselves of their own volition?  Or is something that we need to mandate for all members because it adds no discernable value to them?

[RiverAux]

On one hand our PD program is incredibly valuable.  It's a tremendous value to our membership.

On the other hand, the only way to make people use it is to force them to do so...

Well, we don't force people to do anything.  We don't force the guy eligible for a special appointment to take it, but if you are eligible, why wouldn't you take advantage of it?  We don't force the guys not eligible for special appointments to progress through the PD system either.  They can stay at SMWOG forever if they like.

And it is CAP itself which has set up this system that makes it possible for a significant percentage of our membership to bypass the PD system.  There is no evidence why this is good for CAP, so it seems that the default position should be that anyone who wants to move up in rank do it through the PD system that CAP has designed for itself.

Some here bring up very true problems with our current PD system and I'm all for improving it.  However, for such improvements to have an impact they need to apply to everybody. 

[Patterson]

You either keep it as is or scrap it in its entirety.  When you start allowing exceptions we will find ourselves right back here in 3 years!

For the older (seasoned) members, some may remember when special appointments came into being in the modern form (1964).  CAP always gave medical proffesionals initial advancement, then came mechanics and the rest followed.  It historically was an incentive to recruit Doctors/ Nurses into CAP so they would provide healthcare to our Members.  Since the roles regarding medical, aviation mechanics etc have changed significantly in CAP since 1964, there really is no need any longer.

[Thrashed]

I think the special appointment stuff has gotten way out of hand and should only be limited to those special ones like doctors, lawyers and nurses...or former cadets.

Yea, NOT pilots or aircraft mechanics. What is this anyway...the Civil AIR patrol? Why reward someone who has an actual skill needed in the program? 

[Eclipse]

What skill does an A&P bring (anymore?) CMX means no one is working on the airplanes anymore.

[Thrashed]

Teaching cadets their material:

"Aerospace Dimensions.  Award-winning series of six modules - Introduction to Flight, Aircraft Systems & Airports, Air Environment, Rockets, Space Environment, and Spacecraft; introduces  middle school students and Phase I & II cadets to the fundaments of aviation and space"

We have an A&P in our squadron who has been a great asset.

[Eclipse]

Fair enough, I suppose, though I don't think it would be unfair to surmise that the original reasoning behind advanced grade
for mechanics was their ability as educators.

[CAP_truth]

     In the orginal post it was asked why we do not have enlisted grade in CAP. I remember when they were removed because a squadron commander promoted a 18 year old to master sergeant and at an encampment the 18 year ol went into the serior NCO's club. The NCO's were upset and complained to the chief of staff, and immediately after that the NCO grade were removed.
     I agree with most officer going through the PD program. Professional Appointments based on education with master degrees and above should stay as they are. Mission rated still appontments should be either be flight officers or bring back warrant office grades.

[SARDOC]

     In the orginal post it was asked why we do not have enlisted grade in CAP. I remember when they were removed because a squadron commander promoted a 18 year old to master sergeant and at an encampment the 18 year ol went into the serior NCO's club. The NCO's were upset and complained to the chief of staff, and immediately after that the NCO grade were removed.
     I agree with most officer going through the PD program. Professional Appointments based on education with master degrees and above should stay as they are. Mission rated still appontments should be either be flight officers or bring back warrant office grades.

That's one of those CAP urban legends that I just don't think is based in fact.  We have had CAP officers trolling for Salutes...would that be justification to eliminate officer grade?  If that were the case that would have been a major knee jerk reaction.