Fully funding the cadet program

[RiverAux]

What do you think a CAP that fully-funded its cadet program would look like? 

By fully-funding, I'm talking about a program that provided the cadets with all the uniform items they need (both service dress and BDUs), at least one or two wing encampments paid for by CAP, no membership dues, and the opportunity to attend fully paid for NCSAs.  Basically, a situation where they have almost no out-of-pocket expenses. 

[MIKE]

It would look a lot like JROTC with a bit of the ATC model.  IIRC the ATC in the UK has meeting space for squadrons paid for by the RAF, they get used uniforms for cadets and the "seniors"get an initial issue from the RAF, they get some paid training days for at least the staff... but the cadets still pay dues IIRC.

[coudano]

What do you think a CAP that fully-funded its cadet program would look like? 

By fully-funding, I'm talking about a program that provided the cadets with all the uniform items they need (both service dress and BDUs), at least one or two wing encampments paid for by CAP, no membership dues, and the opportunity to attend fully paid for NCSAs.  Basically, a situation where they have almost no out-of-pocket expenses.

Probabaly a lot more cadets who care a lot less, and overall lower standards across the board.
While i'm all for increasing the "bang for buck" ratio, and making it easier for people to get in, and stay in CAP, There is a certain amount of reasonable "sweat equity" in getting into the game.

I've had cadets who got full or partial sponsorships for their membership due to financial hardship just kind of bleh out.  And i've seen others take free encampments and go to them but then just 'bleh' through the program otherwise.

30,000 cadets x $35 a year comes out to $1,050,000 annually
not including that if it was free to walk in the door, the number of people walking in the door would skyrocket.
That's just membership dues, which is cheap compared to the other things you propose to fund.

Now you couple that with the fact that most cadet squadrons have very few (in some cases zero) effective cadet programs leadership (senior members) and those units can not handle the influx of additional workload (indeed they can barely handle what they already have)

If you want to fully fund the cadet program, then fully fund:
1.  Adult leadership, possibly even paid positions at the wing level, better training and resources for adult leaders
2.  Activities including encampment, but also weekend type stuff throughout the year (1 week long and 3 weekends on the non-encampment quarters every year)
3.  Orientation rides, funds for *absolutely* 1 ride per cadet in their first year of membership, dead minimum.  That's what, $50-$70 per cadet...  theres another cool million or so.

First you build it (a solid, sustainable program) THEN they come.
You don't do it the other way around, by throwing money at the front door, without the ability to sustain after people walk through.

[titanII]

weekend type stuff throughout the year

+1
That's one thing that I would LOVE to see a LOT more of in CAP. Higher-than-squadron Leadership activities should be more than once or twice a year (Encampment, NCSA's, etc.).

[Eclipse]

Probabaly a lot more cadets who care a lot less, and overall lower standards across the board.

+1

I would say you're better off incentivizing performance. Anything free day 1 from the government is looked upon as an entitlement.

Instead of free uniforms, fund outside squadron activities, ES equipment, encampments, NCSA's, etc., and as cadets progress they get
vouchers or points towards these activities.

A pile of free uniforms from cadets who quit in less than a year because they figure out CAP actually involves getting off the couch
helps no one.

Maybe we reduce the uniform expectations below Staff Sergeant - the first year it's golf shirts, t-shirts, and something for ES, with civilian
dress clothes for formal occasions, and then when you become an NCO you get the fancy duds.  That's an incentive.

[FW]

I have no problem with a fully funded cadet program however, I don't think it's a good idea to make it "free" for cadets to participate.  When things become free, they lose their value.  Our cadet program is just too valuable to "give it away".

[coudano]

Maybe we reduce the uniform expectations below Staff Sergeant - the first year it's golf shirts, t-shirts, and something for ES, with civilian
dress clothes for formal occasions, and then when you become an NCO you get the fancy duds.  That's an incentive.

boo on that,
the military style uniform is /necessary/ training tool in phase 1.
I _DO_NOT_WANT_ a C/SSgt trying to figure out, for the first time, how to put together any military style cadet uniform for the first time after pinning on 4 stripes...  Any C/SSgt worth his rank should already be the /master/ of such phase 1 skills as "wear my uniform properly" such that they can TEACH it and EVALUATE it on new cadets who just joined.  No way can they do that without the prior experience and BTDT.

Now you want to use uniforms to incentivize,
make cadets wear blues in phase 1,
and make BDU's a privilege earned at the WBA

[exFlight Officer]

It would look a lot like JROTC with a bit of the ATC model.  IIRC the ATC in the UK has meeting space for squadrons paid for by the RAF, they get used uniforms for cadets and the "seniors"get an initial issue from the RAF, they get some paid training days for at least the staff... but the cadets still pay dues IIRC.

Sounds nice :/

What do you think a CAP that fully-funded its cadet program would look like? 

By fully-funding, I'm talking about a program that provided the cadets with all the uniform items they need (both service dress and BDUs), at least one or two wing encampments paid for by CAP, no membership dues, and the opportunity to attend fully paid for NCSAs.  Basically, a situation where they have almost no out-of-pocket expenses.

Probabaly a lot more cadets who care a lot less, and overall lower standards across the board.
While i'm all for increasing the "bang for buck" ratio, and making it easier for people to get in, and stay in CAP, There is a certain amount of reasonable "sweat equity" in getting into the game.

I've had cadets who got full or partial sponsorships for their membership due to financial hardship just kind of bleh out.  And i've seen others take free encampments and go to them but then just 'bleh' through the program otherwise.

30,000 cadets x $35 a year comes out to $1,050,000 annually
not including that if it was free to walk in the door, the number of people walking in the door would skyrocket.
That's just membership dues, which is cheap compared to the other things you propose to fund.

Now you couple that with the fact that most cadet squadrons have very few (in some cases zero) effective cadet programs leadership (senior members) and those units can not handle the influx of additional workload (indeed they can barely handle what they already have)

If you want to fully fund the cadet program, then fully fund:
1.  Adult leadership, possibly even paid positions at the wing level, better training and resources for adult leaders
2.  Activities including encampment, but also weekend type stuff throughout the year (1 week long and 3 weekends on the non-encampment quarters every year)
3.  Orientation rides, funds for *absolutely* 1 ride per cadet in their first year of membership, dead minimum.  That's what, $50-$70 per cadet...  theres another cool million or so.

First you build it (a solid, sustainable program) THEN they come.
You don't do it the other way around, by throwing money at the front door, without the ability to sustain after people walk through.

I mostly agree with Coudano.


At one squadron that I joined quite a few cadets could not afford uniforms, go to training events, or think about attending encampment because of financial problems.  Why not (if possible legally or etc.) have each cadet's parent's or guardian fill out a financial form based on their income. Have someone at national or wherever evaluate who qualifies for a free uniform items, a free ride to encampment, and etc.  I understand that this may take a lot of time and resources.




Just an idea. Your criticism is welcome.  I may be getting off topic here.

[titanII]

Maybe we reduce the uniform expectations below Staff Sergeant - the first year it's golf shirts, t-shirts, and something for ES, with civilian
dress clothes for formal occasions, and then when you become an NCO you get the fancy duds.  That's an incentive.

I think there's absolutely something to that idea, but I think that it should be military-style uniforms from the start. My Master Plan™ is as follows:
Cadets are given BDU's when they join, and they don't get Blues until they pass C/SSgt. And here's the thing: cadets can't get C/SSgt until they go through Encampment. During Encampment they are instructed on the proper wear & care of the uniform. That way, it's certain that C/SSgts have at least some leadership experience (Encampment) as well as solid instruction on the blues uniform. Not to mention it's a solid deterrent to the "Forever Airman" syndrome.
This was kind of thought of on the fly, and as a what-if thing. Thoughts?

[RiverAux]

It would look a lot like JROTC with a bit of the ATC model.  IIRC the ATC in the UK has meeting space for squadrons paid for by the RAF, they get used uniforms for cadets and the "seniors"get an initial issue from the RAF, they get some paid training days for at least the staff... but the cadets still pay dues IIRC.

I think Mike understands what I was getting at.  We think nothing of doing some of these things for JROTC, but CAP as the red-headed stepchild has a whole different set of expectations of its cadets for no good reason that I've been able to see.  Why aren't JROTC cadets paying dues? 

Now, obviously there would have to be limits, just as there is in JROTC, as to the size of the program, but I really don't see there being a sudden 500% increase in cadet membership just because of of it is freely provided. 

[NIN]

I think Mike understands what I was getting at.  We think nothing of doing some of these things for JROTC, but CAP as the red-headed stepchild has a whole different set of expectations of its cadets for no good reason that I've been able to see.  Why aren't JROTC cadets paying dues? 

Maybe because JROTC is not a civilian non-profit corporation that is only *sometimes* a part of the Air Force.

The RAF doesn't precisely "fund" ATC buildings. They have a 3rd party foundation or similar that handles.that stuff (which gets *some/much* support from the RAF.

Don't forget: ATC officers actually hold a commission, signed by the Queen, and are subject to the UK military's version of the UCMJ.

Radioman would have a fit.

[RiverAux]

Maybe because JROTC is not a civilian non-profit corporation that is only *sometimes* a part of the Air Force.

Don't see how that is relevant to the conversation when the feds are already sending millions our way to partially fund the program.  Why not fully fund it? 

[Brad]

I guess you could call my Wing fortunate in this regard; we seem to have no problem getting surplus BDUs from our SC State Guard friends so that helps out a lot except for the tiny cadets with the tiny sizes, heh.

We also do "Cadet Training Weekends", aka CTW, Wing-wide. One in the Winter/Spring and one in the Fall/Winter. Fri-Sun, and we push it as a "prep-school" for Encampment that summer. It certainly helps ease the "shock-and-awe" some cadets would otherwise feel at Encampment (unless they joined in the gap between CTW and Encampment) and they tend to perform better during Encampment because of it.

[Flying Pig]

  Anyone have any stats on how much that would cost?

[RiverAux]

Oh, I suppose with a little effort some cost estimates could be derived for most of this and it most certainly would be in the tens of millions of dollars. 

But, seeing as how they do that without blinking for JROTC, I don't see why they couldn't for CAP seeing as how they use the CAP cadet program to get around limitations on how many AFJROTC units they can have. 

[MIKE]

I'll bet JROTC does not have airplanes, and more specifically specially equipped high performance airframes... vans and a communications infrastructure.  Nor are they spending money on facilities for things like Hawk Mountain, NESA or NBB.  If the ES mission became irrelevant, think what you could do with that money if it was still available for CP.

[Eclipse]

If the ES mission became irrelevant, think what you could do with that money if it was still available for CP.

If the ES mission becomes irrelevant, there won't be a CP (at least as we know it).  A significant portion of the adult membership joined and serve with
ES as their main focus, and participate with the CP as an added bonus.

If ES were gone, so would they.

[Ford73Diesel]

And here's the thing: cadets can't get C/SSgt until they go through Encampment. During Encampment they are instructed on the proper wear & care of the uniform. That way, it's certain that C/SSgts have at least some leadership experience (Encampment) as well as solid instruction on the blues uniform. Not to mention it's a solid deterrent to the "Forever Airman" syndrome.
This was kind of thought of on the fly, and as a what-if thing. Thoughts?

I am against an encampment requirement for C/SSgt. This can delay a cadet's progression severely. Say you have a cadet who joins in July. He is not a C/Amn by encampment thus cannot (and is not ready to) go his first year. Next year for financial or family reasons he cannot go. The cadet finally goes his third year in. This means the cadet will only be a C/Sra for his first three years in CAP while most cadets who stick with it are C/NCO's or C/Junior officers. C/CMSgt is a good maximum grade without encampment.

A "basic" cadet at encampment won't really get too much hands-on leadership. I've always maintained that cadets should know how to wear the uniform before going to encampment. This type of thing can be done at the squadron. At every encampment I have been to, there has not been enough time to square away uniform issues. While uniform instruction in necessary at encampment, I'd much rather the cadet staff get experience working with basics on more important things than uniforms.

Just my .02

edited to fix a few things

[Eclipse]

You're presuming a situation where there is a single opportunity per year for encampment.

Raise the requirements and you have to raise the number of encampments per year per wing.  That's part of the growth conversation.  My wing has two encampments each year, and at least two more within fairly easy reach in nearby states.

Just as the increase of SLS/CLC opportunities will increase senior progression.  10 years ago my wing had one per year, now they aim for one per quarter.

[Ford73Diesel]

Good point, I understand what you are saying. But...

How many activities can a wing support in a year? How many weeks of vacation/ personal days do most SM's have? (Yes I am aware that there are retired SMs)

I know some wings can pull off two a year, but in my wing, it is a small group of seniors (generally the same people every year pretty much) that come out to support encampment. We struggled to get the SM staff for this years encampment. Expecting all wings to hold two encampments will put a strain on the SM's in the wing IMHO.

[Eclipse]

...in my wing, it is a small group of seniors (generally the same people every year pretty much) that come out to support encampment.

There's your answer.  Growth provides opportunity.

[Ford73Diesel]

There is plenty of opportunity. It is that we could barely get enough SM's to run one encampment, let alone two.

[SARDOC]

Maybe because JROTC is not a civilian non-profit corporation that is only *sometimes* a part of the Air Force.

Don't see how that is relevant to the conversation when the feds are already sending millions our way to partially fund the program.  Why not fully fund it?

Part of the difference between CAP and JROTC.  Is that both are only partially funded by the Sponsoring Service.  In the case of JROTC's they are also subsidized by their sponsoring public school district and by program related fundraisers.  When I was JROTC we held many a Car Wash and even sponsored and held a very large 10k Run to help pay for activities.  If we had a benefactor or foundation that could subsidize the balance we could do what JROTC does.

I got an Idea...Get your cadets to sell 25 Wreaths for WAA and if they do...The Squadron pays that cadets dues.  They sell another 15...They get a Free Set of BDU's etc...   Just examples.  It raises money for the Squadron to help pay for activities and the cadet personally benefits for their efforts. 

[Eclipse]

There is plenty of opportunity. It is that we could barely get enough SM's to run one encampment, let alone two.

Unless and until we can fix that, which is by no means just in your wing, we might as well not discuss growth anywhere else,
because that is the core of our problems.

[Patterson]

We also do "Cadet Training Weekends", aka CTW, Wing-wide. One in the Winter/Spring and one in the Fall/Winter. Fri-Sun, and we push it as a "prep-school" for Encampment that summer.

Yet another Squadron "training Cadets for Encampment".  Too bad CAP Leaders have the mindset that we need to spend 51 weeks each year training for the 1 week Encampment.  (Should be the other way around, Encampment trains Cadets for the Squadron).

On topic: A fully funded Cadet Program would change the program altogether (maybe not in a good way).