Should this really NOT happen?

[SARDOC]

This is the best point in the thread.  PCR has said that cadets can not even drill until they are on the roster.  Stupid lawyers in my opinion (sorry Ned).  They shouldn't be wearing the uniform, yet, though.  I also think that signing the membership application is their waiver and at that point they should be covered under the insurance.  IN FACT, I think that any prospective cadet attending any meeting should be covered under the insurance and probably is.

Well that's part of the problem

CAPR 900-5  THE CAP INSURANCE/BENEFITS PROGRAM states that Civil Air Patrol Insurance benefits are for the Civil Air Patrol organization and the Members thereof.  There are no benefits categories for potential member or applicants and CAPR 39-2 clearly states that the membership is not effective until after the Application processed by NHQ and the member appears on the Official membership Database.

Any allowance of a potential CAP member to participate under the auspices that they would be covered by CAP insurance is just not accurate and a violation of CAPR 35-10 where all CAP members will act in a fiduciary capacity toward the organization and its members.

[RiverAux]

I think you're talking about two different things --- CAP insurance that covers members hurt while participating in CAP and insurance that CAP has to cover non-members who might get hurt while at CAP activities.  If the CAP building collapses and injures a non-member attending their first meeting, they probably could sue CAP and CAP's insurance would cover them.  But, it would be an entirely different process than CAP members involved in the same incident would have to go through. 

[davidsinn]

How can a person pass a controlled test without being a member?

By scoring 80%.   

When our membership board approves their membership application, we treat them like regular members.  The appplications are normally mailed to National the following day.  This is different than how we treat potential senior member.

What problems have we had doing this?  None.  What is the worse thing that can happen?  The cadet stops coming and the following week National approves his membership.  The Chapter One Leadership test gets compromised?  It is an open book test.       

You missed the point. By allowing a non member to see a test you have violated test control procedures. That's a pretty big deal. Weather it's open book or not is irrelevant because it's not your call to make.

[Eclipse]

But what if the Check they wrote you bounces or is written from a closed account?  How do you verify that at the unit level? It won't be processed until the payment clears at NHQ.

Can't cadet apps be paid for by credit card?

[davidsinn]

But what if the Check they wrote you bounces or is written from a closed account?  How do you verify that at the unit level? It won't be processed until the payment clears at NHQ.

Can't cadet apps be paid for by credit card?

I don't think any initial apps can be. I've never seen a place for the info.

[Short Field]

By allowing a non member to see a test you have violated test control procedures. That's a pretty big deal. Weather it's open book or not is irrelevant because it's not your call to make.

It is always best to read a regulation before accusing someone of violating it.

CAPR 50-4, para 2-4
a. Closed-Book Tests.
(1) Ensure the examinee is listed in eServices or has a current ID card. Note control numbers on test booklets furnished examinees and ensure all tests are returned at the end of the test session. New cadets awaiting NHQ to process their membership application may attempt Achievement 1 tests as soon as the commander endorses their CAP Form 15, Application for Cadet Membership.
b. Open-Book Tests. Will be administered according to the instructions displayed by the software or as specified in the hard copy of the test booklet.

Note the wording "New cadets awaiting NHQ to process their membership application".  It does not say "potential new members".  They are "new cadets".  I treat my new cadets just like my old cadets.

[Major Lord]

Please refer me to a Court Docket number for any case involving CAP's liability as it pertains to a Cadet participating in a Cadet activity. Also, have we established that this was in fact, a CAP activity within the legal and regulatory definition? Did you drive the (erstwhile) Cadet to the parade? Was this an AFAM parade? Can you point me to any case in which CAP has been civilly liable for the actions of any of its members? Has anyone put an eye out laying a wreathe on a grave? Grow a set people! If we let the lawyer-ball types drive the train, the terrorists win!

And by the way, half the time this group sounds like an edition of "Queer eye for the straight guy" with its incessant discussion of uniform fashion statements. Do we still have a worthwhile Mission or are we just a bunch of wannabees basking in the (largely fictional) accounts of WWII CAP's glories? We are an organization in decay, and all you worry about is the technicalities of flag seams? We've got bigger problems.

Major Lord

[davidsinn]

By allowing a non member to see a test you have violated test control procedures. That's a pretty big deal. Weather it's open book or not is irrelevant because it's not your call to make.

It is always best to read a regulation before accusing someone of violating it.

CAPR 50-4, para 2-4
a. Closed-Book Tests.
(1) Ensure the examinee is listed in eServices or has a current ID card. Note control numbers on test booklets furnished examinees and ensure all tests are returned at the end of the test session. New cadets awaiting NHQ to process their membership application may attempt Achievement 1 tests as soon as the commander endorses their CAP Form 15, Application for Cadet Membership.
b. Open-Book Tests. Will be administered according to the instructions displayed by the software or as specified in the hard copy of the test booklet.

Ok. You are right.

[Short Field]

  - just between us, if you hadn't brought up the point, I wouldn't have read the reg...

[davidsinn]

- just between us, if you hadn't brought up the point, I wouldn't have read the reg...

Testing's not my department so I haven't read it in a long time...

We are an organization in decay, and all you worry about is the technicalities of flag seams? We've got bigger problems.

I agree but what do you propose we little people do?

[SARDOC]

But what if the Check they wrote you bounces or is written from a closed account?  How do you verify that at the unit level? It won't be processed until the payment clears at NHQ.

Can't cadet apps be paid for by credit card?

Yes,  Actually both cadets and Seniors can pay using a credit card.  That Credit Card is still processed at NHQ not at the unit level.  Credit cards still have issues like checks however like accounts being closed or over allowable credit limits.

[Eclipse]

Credit cards still have issues like checks however like accounts being closed or over allowable credit limits.

Neither an issue when processed immediately.

And if the check bounces, or the card doesn't clear, then they really aren't a member and that brings us back to "DOH!".

[Ron1319]

It'd be nice to be able to enter the credit card info into eservices and clear it immediately.  Can't the computers clear an echeck over the Internet, too?

To be clear, it's my understanding that PCR is still under orders that perspective cadets are not allowed to drill.  It'd be really nice if that were lifted.

[Eclipse]

It'd be nice to be able to enter the credit card info into eservices and clear it immediately.  Can't the computers clear an echeck over the Internet, too?

To be clear, it's my understanding that PCR is still under orders that perspective cadets are not allowed to drill.  It'd be really nice if that were lifted.

They can if you are set up for it.  This is not an NHQ issue, but a banking industry issue.  It is taking far too long
to get people in line with electronic payments.  5 years from now can't fome fast enough.

Death to paper! The King Is Dead! Long Live the King!

[SARDOC]

All of those payment options would completely speed up the process.  I'm not completely sure how NHQ processes payments but I know that there is more to processing an application than just the Data entry and making sure they receive the payment.  Years ago we had a young kid try to join our unit as a cadet but it turns out he had been 2B'd by another squadron in another wing.  He was a military dependent and figured rejoining CAP after his Parent PCS'd would allow him a fresh start and make new friends in the new town.  NHQ sent us a letter and to him telling him that his membership was being refused.   We never even saw the kid again...we don't know why he was 2b'd that wasn't shared with us.   There was no appeals process to this at the time.

Just makes me think that there is more to the process than just cashing the check.

[Major Lord]

I am glad that at least years ago, someone thought to look up 2b'd Cadets in the PNG file. I wonder if 2b'ing cadets was more common back in the old days? Its pretty rare these days. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, they also had the non-renew capability, no longer a viable option. I have never had to 2b a Cadet, although a few resigned under circumstances where that could have easily been a remedy (drugs, assault with a deadly weapon, etc) Considering some of the rather dramatic failures of the so-called "background check" conducted for Seniors, I think the example of the 2b'd cadet ( if it happened in the current century) would be more of a failure of the membership committee to act with consideration. I wonder if anyone in that Sq may have said effectively " Well, we know you have been 2b'd in the past, but lest just send in your money and see what happens?", Most of us have seen Sq Commanders give the Okey -dokey on a "Form 31" for a cadet to attend an activity that they know the cadet is not qualified for. ( In one memorable case, a Sq commander signed off on a Cadet 2-weeks post suicide attempt to attend a BCS....one of the higher stress variety, not the new soft and gentle type. THAT should not happen.

Major Lord

[Ron1319]

It's not particularly difficult to link those databases so that entry in eServices and payment entry would crosscheck with 2B history and raise a red flag.  If a cadet is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon, then they should definitely be 2B'd regardless of their desire to resign so that they show up in said database.

[SARDOC]

Considering some of the rather dramatic failures of the so-called "background check" conducted for Seniors, I think the example of the 2b'd cadet ( if it happened in the current century) would be more of a failure of the membership committee to act with consideration. I wonder if anyone in that Sq may have said effectively " Well, we know you have been 2b'd in the past, but lest just send in your money and see what happens?",

Um, what Membership Committee?   And even if we had a membership committee how could they prevent someone from lying on their application?

[RogueLeader]

Each commander, at their prerogative, may set up a membership committee to determine if new members should be allowed to join and if current members should be allowed to continue.  To your second question, I don't have an answer.

[Major Lord]

I think the question "um, what membership committee?" pretty much says it all.

Major Lord