We're Building a UAV

[♠SARKID♠]

My squadron is in the planning stages of building a UAV/FPV aircraft.  We've already applied for an AFA grant to get us started and we're currently hashing out the AE curriculum associated for the build.  The goal is for the build to be an AE program for the cadets, but to have a functioning ES asset when we're done.

I know there's a thread from 2010 floating around on local UAV use floating around, but it didn't answer some of the key questions I need to know.  If we're going to use this as an ES search asset, are we going to have to get an airworthiness certificate for it?  Do wee need to have a licensed pilot with us or flying it?  We'd be flying it out of visual sight on a regular basis, through video goggles or a GPS autopilot, so I'm pretty sure we'd be going outside the standard model aircraft guidelines.  I know that if we keep it within visual range we're good, but we want to be able to go out a couple miles over forest, hill, and dale.

I have submitted my questions to the FAA as well, but wanted to know if any of the folks around the forum had some answers.

[Eclipse]

Aren't any radio controlled air vehicles which are out of the line of site of the operator prohibited?

[sardak]

Here is the link to the FAA FAQ page on the regs and requirements for Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS), which is the preferred term over UAV.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/systemops/aaim/organizations/uas/coa/faq/

The first answer on this page links to three documents which will answer most, if not all, of your questions.

Mike

[♠SARKID♠]

Wow, they really have this stuff locked down.  May be more than a little tough to get this happening on the ES side...

[PHall]

Wow, they really have this stuff locked down.  May be more than a little tough to get this happening on the ES side...

The mid-air between a C-130 and a Predator over Afghanistan a month or two ago won't help either.

[a2capt]

There's a fine line between R/C aircraft and UAS.

You are 19 miles past it, with your desires of this project.

Make smaller stuff, that fits in the realm of the AMA covered areas. Except thats still line of sight, and visual range. If you're that close, you don't need a UAS. You can walk there.

[sardak]

I was at a symposium last week where two of the presentations included use of UAS in search and rescue, though UAS was not the primary topic of either presentation. It got me doing some looking around which led me to the FAA site which, like you, dampened my enthusiasm.

One of the presentations was on a search for a missing missionary pilot and his 6 passengers (in a C-182) in Venezuela. It was given by the developer of the software for the search team's home-built UAV which they refer to as an "aerial camera platform" (ACP). Pictures of the ACP and the search are here: http://www.findingbobnorton.org/aerial_camera_platform_acp

The other presentation was by an MD with DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Products Agency) on the development of new equipment and techniques for medics and warfighters in the sandbox and elsewhere. He talked about how the IR imagery from a UAS can be used to help triage the injured and deceased.  http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/DSO/

Mike

[a2capt]

In a nutshell, to operate in US airspace, on that level, it's got to be flown by a licensed pilot, be manufactured according to all that applies, and be operated by a public agency or DoD. (Public use flight). CAP on an AFM might be a stretch, as our flights are then Public Use, but I doubt that will ever happen. Why? It costs ~$80/hour to send a manned Cessna 182 overhead. Why send a UAS?  A whole lot less paperwork and hassle.

You're looking for something for a ground team to have an extended look with. Use a small R/C aircraft, a helicopter. Send it up, with a spread spectrum camera on it.

Otherwise, you have the makings of a massive AE project, but for ES? ... thats a stretch.

[Spaceman3750]

A SAR conference I was at last month had a vendor selling UAS quadcopters for SAR, LE, etc applications. The guy behind the table said that all you needed was a few hours of training, but he also was trying to move his $100k+ gizmo.

[Major Lord]

Have you considered the possibility that the UAV ( And if I were you I would drop that nomenclature to avoid the wrath of the FAA, CAP, FCC, HLS, MADD, etc.) could be used for an airborne Radio Direction finding receiver? A ground team that could launch a quick- deployable high altitude ( relatively, at least) model airplane could greatly enhance their probability of ELT beacon signal acquisition.

Also, if you have not done so already, you may want to dual -charter your Squadron as a BSA "Venture Crew" , Opening up the use of Ham Radio equipment for at least your R&D "-1" model. This would allow you to use much higher control power, as well as downlink power ( video, tracking, telemetry, etc) without stepping on NTIA or FCC toes.

I think you have an awesome concept! Let me know if there is anything I can get for you in terms of radio gear. I have ATV and APRS tracking stuff in my junk bin that could be put to better use!

Major Lord

[ElectricPenguin]

You need an Amateur* radio license. I know cuz I thought of making an RC plane and then adding a wireless camera on it... More expensive then I would like, good chance it would crash too... :/

FYI: http://www.draganfly.com/
http://www.draganfly.com/uav-airplane/tango/

[Eclipse]

The goal is for the build to be an AE program for the cadets, but to have a functioning ES asset when we're done.

You might as well ask up the chain on this.

As an AE project, I see no issue.

As an ES asset, there are twelve different questions, some might require NHQ to answer.
For starters, who's going to pay the bill when this thing hits someone or something on an AFAM?

[Spaceman3750]

Does "ES UAV Pilot" rate CAP pilot wings?

[lordmonar]

You know....this is not really a bad idea.....if you stay in the RC area instead of going up to the UAS level.

A helo type RC craft with a camera and some sort of DF unit....be able to do an off bearing LOB or get some eyes on over the trees or hill.

[BTCS1*]

I'm actually working with a teacher from my school and a fellow cadet/ham on developing a fully autonomous UAV to do RDF for entry into the Intel competition. Within the next 3-4 months there will hopefully be a functioning prototype!

[Major Lord]

That sounds awesome, but now we need details man, details! Helo or fixed wing? On board navigation via an Intel product? DF' ELT's? Inquiring minds want to know!

Major Lord

[♠SARKID♠]

Have you considered the possibility that the UAV ( And if I were you I would drop that nomenclature to avoid the wrath of the FAA, CAP, FCC, HLS, MADD, etc.) could be used for an airborne Radio Direction finding receiver? A ground team that could launch a quick- deployable high altitude ( relatively, at least) model airplane could greatly enhance their probability of ELT beacon signal acquisition.

Also, if you have not done so already, you may want to dual -charter your Squadron as a BSA "Venture Crew" , Opening up the use of Ham Radio equipment for at least your R&D "-1" model. This would allow you to use much higher control power, as well as downlink power ( video, tracking, telemetry, etc) without stepping on NTIA or FCC toes.

I think you have an awesome concept! Let me know if there is anything I can get for you in terms of radio gear. I have ATV and APRS tracking stuff in my junk bin that could be put to better use!

Major Lord

I did have the DF brainstorm a couple days ago, I haven't giggled with delight in a long time.     I'll let you know if we need something or some assistance!

You need an Amateur* radio license. I know cuz I thought of making an RC plane and then adding a wireless camera on it... More expensive then I would like, good chance it would crash too... :/

FYI: http://www.draganfly.com/
http://www.draganfly.com/uav-airplane/tango/

Known about the Draganfly for a couple of years, you have no idea as to how much I want one.  A base price of $32,000 for the new model is a bit steep though without a huge grant.

You know....this is not really a bad idea.....if you stay in the RC area instead of going up to the UAS level.

A helo type RC craft with a camera and some sort of DF unit....be able to do an off bearing LOB or get some eyes on over the trees or hill.

If that's what it has to be in the end, so be it.  But I'd really like to see how difficult it really would be to make a UAV.  Sometimes (just, just sometimes) impossible, isn't.

[Major Lord]

"If you build it they will come".....( Field of Dreams)

Major Lord

[JetDriver777]

Any RC airframe will work... 

you add a autopilot...
http://diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot

Then you add a video camera with transmitter.
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16628&cat=279&page=1
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16299&cat=264&page=1

plus a on screen display...
http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=135


Under $1000 you have an RC plane that can:

-Transmit real time video (Line of sight)
-Video is embedded with all the data you need to fly the plane soley off the video feed
-Autpilot provides a data link with real time telemetry
-real time "command and control" link to change any mission parameter while in flight
-Autopilot has unlimited waypoints, loiter, and return to home function


you can easily add a radio scannner tuned to 121.5 homer freq that re-transmits the scanner audio via the audio carrier on the video feed.

possibilities are endless.

HOWEVER
you must fall under the "Hobbiest" category and follow all AMA rules.   Under 400', always maintain visual site.  Must have a spotter if the pilot is flying via video feed, the spotter must be able to take control if needed.  (See AMA rules for all the "FPV" and "UAV" caviats).

In about 1 week mine will be completely built out as discribed above (Exept the video and data links willl be in the Amateur Radio spectrum).

[♠SARKID♠]

We're going to be running on a very similar setup.

Ours is going to take a couple months as we plan on having the cadets work on it two Thursdays a month.  We're going to set it up so we have, say, an AE lesson on aircraft components and aerodynamics at our Monday meeting, then meet on Thursday to assemble the aircraft.  Two weeks later we have a class on air to ground communications on Monday, build/install transmitters on Thursday.  We're planning out a number of classes and will work on it incrementally to make a full curriculum out of the build.

[JetDriver777]

Sweet.   if you need any technical assistance let me know.  Ive been flying the FPV planes for years...  anything i can do to help

[davidsinn]

I think this is a really cool AE project.

If you wanted to dual purpose over to ES I think a more practical "over the horizon" DF platform for a ground team would be a balloon with a 200' tether and a camera and Becker hanging underneath.

[♠SARKID♠]

I think this is a really cool AE project.

If you wanted to dual purpose over to ES I think a more practical "over the horizon" DF platform for a ground team would be a balloon with a 200' tether and a camera and Becker hanging underneath.

All of my balloons are going to be taken up for my high altitude antenna, one for the RC plane, one for regular commo.  But that's another thread 

[davidsinn]

I think this is a really cool AE project.

If you wanted to dual purpose over to ES I think a more practical "over the horizon" DF platform for a ground team would be a balloon with a 200' tether and a camera and Becker hanging underneath.

All of my balloons are going to be taken up for my high altitude antenna, one for the RC plane, one for regular commo.  But that's another thread 

Nice.

[Major Lord]

Any RC airframe will work... 

you add a autopilot...
http://diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot

Then you add a video camera with transmitter.
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16628&cat=279&page=1
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16299&cat=264&page=1

plus a on screen display...
http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=135


Under $1000 you have an RC plane that can:

-Transmit real time video (Line of sight)
-Video is embedded with all the data you need to fly the plane soley off the video feed
-Autpilot provides a data link with real time telemetry
-real time "command and control" link to change any mission parameter while in flight
-Autopilot has unlimited waypoints, loiter, and return to home function


you can easily add a radio scannner tuned to 121.5 homer freq that re-transmits the scanner audio via the audio carrier on the video feed.

possibilities are endless.

HOWEVER
you must fall under the "Hobbiest" category and follow all AMA rules.   Under 400', always maintain visual site.  Must have a spotter if the pilot is flying via video feed, the spotter must be able to take control if needed.  (See AMA rules for all the "FPV" and "UAV" caviats).

In about 1 week mine will be completely built out as discribed above (Exept the video and data links willl be in the Amateur Radio spectrum).

Its not lawful to retransmit the 121.5 signal between radio services, so you will have to convert it to telemetry data. Building an autopilot also seems a little over the top for a device that you have to maintain a visual on, but at least it can find its way home if your command system fails!

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

You know....this whole UAV craze was started back in the 70's by to israili military types.

One was a HAM and the other and RC enthusiats.

http://www.vectorsite.net/twuav_10.html

[JetDriver777]

Any RC airframe will work... 

you add a autopilot...
http://diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot

Then you add a video camera with transmitter.
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16628&cat=279&page=1
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16299&cat=264&page=1

plus a on screen display...
http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=135


Under $1000 you have an RC plane that can:

-Transmit real time video (Line of sight)
-Video is embedded with all the data you need to fly the plane soley off the video feed
-Autpilot provides a data link with real time telemetry
-real time "command and control" link to change any mission parameter while in flight
-Autopilot has unlimited waypoints, loiter, and return to home function


you can easily add a radio scannner tuned to 121.5 homer freq that re-transmits the scanner audio via the audio carrier on the video feed.

possibilities are endless.

HOWEVER
you must fall under the "Hobbiest" category and follow all AMA rules.   Under 400', always maintain visual site.  Must have a spotter if the pilot is flying via video feed, the spotter must be able to take control if needed.  (See AMA rules for all the "FPV" and "UAV" caviats).

In about 1 week mine will be completely built out as discribed above (Exept the video and data links willl be in the Amateur Radio spectrum).

Its not lawful to retransmit the 121.5 signal between radio services, so you will have to convert it to telemetry data. Building an autopilot also seems a little over the top for a device that you have to maintain a visual on, but at least it can find its way home if your command system fails!

Major Lord

Im not doubting you but can you cite this?

  If it is the case its really not a big deal.  I can either have the COR on the 121.5 receiver trigger a relay to send a telemetry message.  or Encode the audio via IP and send it back to the ground station over a IP Data link. (3.2 ghz Ham band)

[lordmonar]

With a little circuity you can use the 121.5 signal from the DF to actually steer the plane.

The Army has a little device that they can attach a parachute that will steer the parachute to follow the transmitter carried by another jumper.

Another simple set of circuity could give you a doppeler LOB that you can send back as telemetry....along with the GPS cordinates of the plane...google map to plot the LOBs....and you can DF the ELT in no time.

[JetDriver777]

What doppler DF have you guys used>  That is reasonably priced$  I don't think i can afford a becker!

Steering the plane based off the DF vectors is pretty easy.  I hesitate due to the "must maintain visual" rule on the plane.  Dont want the plane to go out the BFE on a DF signal.   I could integrate the DF vectors onto the HUD video overlay board. almost like the display in the beckers.

[Major Lord]

Any RC airframe will work... 

you add a autopilot...
http://diydrones.com/notes/ArduPilot

Then you add a video camera with transmitter.
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16628&cat=279&page=1
http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16299&cat=264&page=1

plus a on screen display...
http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=135


Under $1000 you have an RC plane that can:

-Transmit real time video (Line of sight)
-Video is embedded with all the data you need to fly the plane soley off the video feed
-Autpilot provides a data link with real time telemetry
-real time "command and control" link to change any mission parameter while in flight
-Autopilot has unlimited waypoints, loiter, and return to home function


you can easily add a radio scannner tuned to 121.5 homer freq that re-transmits the scanner audio via the audio carrier on the video feed.

possibilities are endless.

HOWEVER
you must fall under the "Hobbiest" category and follow all AMA rules.   Under 400', always maintain visual site.  Must have a spotter if the pilot is flying via video feed, the spotter must be able to take control if needed.  (See AMA rules for all the "FPV" and "UAV" caviats).

In about 1 week mine will be completely built out as discribed above (Exept the video and data links willl be in the Amateur Radio spectrum).

Its not lawful to retransmit the 121.5 signal between radio services, so you will have to convert it to telemetry data. Building an autopilot also seems a little over the top for a device that you have to maintain a visual on, but at least it can find its way home if your command system fails!

Major Lord

Im not doubting you but can you cite this?

  If it is the case its really not a big deal.  I can either have the COR on the 121.5 receiver trigger a relay to send a telemetry message.  or Encode the audio via IP and send it back to the ground station over a IP Data link. (3.2 ghz Ham band)

Sure, for the prohibition of this action in the ham band, you will find it in Section 97.113 (4) (e) Part 97, Chapter 1, Title 47 Code of Federal Regulations. Other Federal Laws have controlling authority over this area as well.  CAP's good friend, the Inventor of the L-Per from L-Tronics requested an amendment to part 97 back in the 90's to allow hams to do precisely what it is you have in mind. As far as I know, the FCC never gave him the time of day. I know that people have added 121.5 receivers to LMR repeaters to alert listeners to the ELT on the "tail" of a transmissions from repeaters, but I don't know of any CAP repeaters that do that anymore. It just makes too much sense for the Government to allow it!

Just hearing the tone would not do you too much good anyway; For good RDF work, I think you would be better off with a wide dynamic range RSSI  using one of three methods.
a) An omnidirectional antenna flying in circles and developing circular-overlap mapping ( where circles are drawn on a map as a function of the altitude and instantaneous amplitude of a signal, and overlapping areas are the presumptive origination source) or

b)A gain antenna with as highly a directional lobe as you can fit on your aircraft ( best choice in my opinion, since you can also use the "null as well as the optimal maximum RSSI)

c) A switched antenna RDF system would provide high bearing resolution, but at the cost of antenna gain and reduced sensitivity.

All of these methods could be downlinked via conventional telemetry modes in the Amateur Radio Service, or other permissible service ( 900 or 2400 MHZ , license-free digital spread spectrum radios, for instance)

If you  are VOCODING the audio and sending it as IP I don't think that this would be a violation of Part 97, since you are not "rebroadcasting" a signal per se. Good luck with your project!

Major Lord

[BTCS1*]

That sounds awesome, but now we need details man, details! Helo or fixed wing? On board navigation via an Intel product? DF' ELT's? Inquiring minds want to know!

Major Lord

For me, fixed wing. We were going to try a quadracopter, but then we realized that it couldn't carry the necessary payload.

[Major Lord]

Excellent, especially for a semi autonomous unit. I would love to do a lightweight electric helicopter to just launch straight up ( lots of forest in Northern California) for a DF system only, but I am sure we all look forward to seeing your design!

Major Lord

[BTCS1*]

I'll be sure to post photos, etc. once it is done! And to counter that problem, we're going to use an airframe based off of the Army's RQ-11 Raven drone, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_RQ-11_Raven) which is hand launched and requires a small takeoff area.

[NIN]

The mid-air between a C-130 and a Predator over Afghanistan a month or two ago won't help either.

Yeah, I hate it when a Herk runs into my RQ-7 (ie. NOT a Predator) from behind.

[Major Lord]

Just try keeping your C-130's out of Class G airspace around active SAR missions.........Safety first!

Major Lord

[edubb811]

My squadron looked into the possibility of getting a UAV team together a while ago for ES use. We found it to be way too expensive. If you can pull it off and stay on budget, more power to ya

[NIN]

My squadron looked into the possibility of getting a UAV team together a while ago for ES use. We found it to be way too expensive. If you can pull it off and stay on budget, more power to ya

I hear you can get a real nice slightly used one from the Iranians.

[Major Lord]

My squadron looked into the possibility of getting a UAV team together a while ago for ES use. We found it to be way too expensive. If you can pull it off and stay on budget, more power to ya

I hear you can get a real nice slightly used one from the Iranians.

The Israeli's may make it slightly radioactive, so be careful if you buy it on E-Bay.

Major Lord

[NIN]

The Israeli's may make it slightly radioactive, so be careful if you buy it on E-Bay.

I'll change the batteries in my Geiger counter now...

[♠SARKID♠]

We've got some spares lying around from the RM days if you need them...

[Major Lord]

Well, it may not be going out on E-bay any time soon. It seems our Dear Leader has asked the peace-loving people of Iran if we can pretty please-with humus on top have our drone back ( This caused a little confusion, since they thought at first we meant Alec Baldwin) so in the interests of peace and the spirit of Christmas, I am sure they will hand it back to us tout de suite . What could possibly go wrong? They seem to have had a misunderstanding with the Mullahs, and Mahmoud is suspecting of putting together a failed hit on the chief "Holy Man" so they might have a bit of internal mess to clear up first, but I am sure we can hold hands across the oceans and sing Kum Bay Yah, and all will be well....... Or we can nuke them till their camels light up brighter than Rudolph's nose, but who wants that to happen? ( Show of hands?)

Major Lord

[ProdigalJim]

Kinda like when we asked the Chinese for our EP-3 back? 

[Al Sayre]

Well, it may not be going out on E-bay any time soon. It seems our Dear Leader has asked the peace-loving people of Iran if we can pretty please-with humus on top have our drone back ( This caused a little confusion, since they thought at first we meant Alec Baldwin) so in the interests of peace and the spirit of Christmas, I am sure they will hand it back to us tout de suite . What could possibly go wrong? They seem to have had a misunderstanding with the Mullahs, and Mahmoud is suspecting of putting together a failed hit on the chief "Holy Man" so they might have a bit of internal mess to clear up first, but I am sure we can hold hands across the oceans and sing Kum Bay Yah, and all will be well....... Or we can nuke them till their camels light up brighter than Rudolph's nose, but who wants that to happen? ( Show of hands?)

Major Lord

:clap:

[lordmonar]

Kinda like when we asked the Chinese for our EP-3 back? 

It is standard practice to ask for it back.  Lots of cold war incidents where aircraft were shipped back in boxes after someone defected or landed on the wrong airbase.

[ProdigalJim]

I remember that EP-3 deal pretty strongly. As I recall, the bad guys milked it for maximum humiliation.

[SarDragon]

And then we had to pay the Russians top cart it back home for us.   

[Major Lord]

Interesting page on UAV's for amateurs!

http://dronehacks.com/

Major Lord

[ElectricPenguin]

Well, it may not be going out on E-bay any time soon. It seems our Dear Leader has asked the peace-loving people of Iran if we can pretty please-with humus on top have our drone back ( This caused a little confusion, since they thought at first we meant Alec Baldwin) so in the interests of peace and the spirit of Christmas, I am sure they will hand it back to us tout de suite . What could possibly go wrong? They seem to have had a misunderstanding with the Mullahs, and Mahmoud is suspecting of putting together a failed hit on the chief "Holy Man" so they might have a bit of internal mess to clear up first, but I am sure we can hold hands across the oceans and sing Kum Bay Yah, and all will be well....... Or we can nuke them till their camels light up brighter than Rudolph's nose, but who wants that to happen? ( Show of hands?)

Major Lord

:clap:

:clap: :clap: :clap: Turn them into a parkinglot.

[♠SARKID♠]

Well, we got the planes in the air and they flew beautifully!

http://www.timmermancap.org/a-successful-rc-test-flight/514/

[flyboy53]

Cool!

Nice website, too!