Major and above not able to take SOS at Air University

[a2capt]

Perhaps if CAP was discussed just a *little* more during BMT it might also go towards lessening that gap .. But that is another thread.

[SARDOC]

Perhaps if more CAP members completed SOS/ACSC/AWC we could eventually bridge the widening cultural gap between CAP and USAF.

That is a great point and I agree.  Now CAP members can't take it unless they have a bachelors degree.  I'd see fewer CAP members taking these classes.  I still think there is a benefit to RSC and NSC as well though because they are more CAP specific.

[DBlair]

Perhaps if more CAP members completed SOS/ACSC/AWC we could eventually bridge the widening cultural gap between CAP and USAF.

That is a great point and I agree.  Now CAP members can't take it unless they have a bachelors degree.  I'd see fewer CAP members taking these classes.  I still think there is a benefit to RSC and NSC as well though because they are more CAP specific.

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I find it interesting that many SMs really enjoy holding Officer grade, and any benefits/courtesies that come with it, but then have an issue with any minimum standards for Officers, such as a Bachelor's degree when they should be happy they are "Officers" to begin with as a result of no real CAP commissioning standards.

I wonder if by CAP establishing such standards, it would help the AF (etc) take CAP a bit more seriously and as competent professionals rather than essentially rolling their eyes at CAP members wearing Officer grade, as soon as they learn that CAP's path to commissioning is all of: Join (HS Graduate) + wait 6 months = 2d Lt.


Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

[Salty]

I agree with the above sentiment.  I cherish my BA and I'm currently working on my MA.

[Eclipse]

Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

You don't increase expectations and standards without also increasing benefits.
Want college degrees?  Provide the funding and then billet people into jobs worthy of said degrees. 

CAP is not about "meeting military standards" (whatever that means), it is about volunteers providing professionalized services to their
country and community at the level at which they are able, building their skills and abilities through hands-on experience, and being respected
for the service itself, on its own terms, without a lot of nonsense from people who don't understand the question.

[SARDOC]

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I'm not sure but we did a survey when I went to RSC.  We had about 24 Students and only about half had a Bachelors degree, 4 had Masters...none of them had a doctorate.   I know that is not a scientific poll...but that seems like a high amount of Non degree earners in the group for a group that was mostly CAP Majors.  The number might be higher than you think.

[DBlair]

Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

You don't increase expectations and standards without also increasing benefits.
Want college degrees?  Provide the funding and then billet people into jobs worthy of said degrees. 

CAP is not about "meeting military standards" (whatever that means), it is about volunteers providing professionalized services to their
country and community at the level at which they are able, building their skills and abilities through hands-on experience, and being respected
for the service itself, on its own terms, without a lot of nonsense from people who don't understand the question.

By no means am I saying that CAP should not be about volunteer service, or that members should not be appreciated/recognized for all that is done. I am very much a cheerleader for all that we do as an organization.

What I'm saying is that when commissioning is handed out like the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality, and all it takes is joining with a HS diploma/GED, waiting 6 months, and then pretty much hocus pocus the member is a 2d Lt, it reduces the credibility of our "Officers" and I've heard countless conversations where this seems to come up and raises eyebrows with CAP "Officers" not being taken seriously as a result-- anytime someone learns what it takes to become a 2d Lt in CAP, immediate change in perspective seems to follow.

As for military standards, I was speaking to the requirement of a degree being required for commissioning (yes, I am aware of the Army bending things with the 90 credit commissioning/degree by O-3 policy) and also that there should be some sort of process leading to a commissioning as I feel that when it is handed out so easily and casually, it loses a certain amount of je ne sais quoi.

Personally, I wouldn't mind the SM program expanding and revising a bit, nor would I mind getting closer to the AF.

[Eclipse]

Our member credibility has absolutely nothing to do with a diploma on their wall, or lack thereof, and everything to do with our execution an attitude.

[Airborne Medic]

Sir,

When I'm not perfoming my volunteer service in CAP, I am an Active Duty Army Officer.  Just to let you and anyone else thats interested know, approximatley 90 days ago the Army changed its policy and will no longer allow candidates into OCS unless they have their bachelors degree.  The only direct commissions authorized now are for licensed medical and law professionals.  The days of 90 credits are gone along with much of the budget after the "super committee" failure.  I am concerned about how CAP will be affected since the operational funding for the organization comes out of the Air Force butdget.  If they can't put fuel in the fighters, then I dont see how they can can continue to fund CAP activities in the manner that they have been.

As far as you comment about the CAP commissioning, I totally agree!  I have seen some real yahoo's wearing CPT and MAJ rank and it really goes to their head.  These type individuals have no military bearing and sometimes their level of maturity is below that of some of the kids that are cadets.   Even each state headquarters of the Army National Guard requires anyone wanting to be an officer, that cannot go to the AD OCS,  to attend their state OCS programs which is one full weekend per month for 12 months with a two week training period in the summertime.  I'm not saying that CAP should take it to that level but maybe something similar would be appropriate; however, I'm not holding my breath. 

CPT Brown
Health Services Officer
SC Wing, CAP

[Eclipse]

I have seen some real yahoo's wearing CPT and MAJ rank and it really goes to their head.

A liberal arts degree isn't going to change that.

[MSG Mac]

" Even each state headquarters of the Army National Guard requires anyone wanting to be an officer, that cannot go to the AD OCS,  to attend their state OCS programs which is one full weekend per month for 12 months with a two week training period in the summertime.  I'm not saying that CAP should take it to that level but maybe something similar would be appropriate; however, I'm not holding my breath."

Believe it or not, there used to be a requirement that Senior Members complete an Officer Candidate Course prior to comissioning. That was 40 years ago or more. A better requirement would be receiving the Davis Award before commissioning.   

[Eclipse]

Can we all please refrain from using the term "commissioned".  We aren't.  We're appointed, which is another huge difference in the expectations.

Commissioned officers in the military have legal authority and responsibility, with the expectation of obedience of their subordinates and
guidance of their superiors.

The civil responsibility resting on the shoulders of our members far exceeds that of any of their peer organizations - I have issued equipment in my truck worth more than the annual operating budget of most BSA units, and bending an airplane could bankrupt a member.  Having criminal
penalties regarding actions (or failure to act) attached to that is simply not reasonable for inconsistently trained volunteers.

[SARDOC]

I hate to go off on the tangent again.  But this is one of the reasons why CAP should really consider bringing back a real for lack of a better phrase "enlisted" rank structure.  It would allow the flexibility to change professional development characteristics  to increase the training for those we make officers of our organization.  Rank means things to people we deal with on the outside.  It displays among other things like leadership roles, seniority responsibility among other things.  If you are on the Scene of a car crash and you see a police "lieutenant" you would expect they've had more than just an intro class on what their organization is and does.  Lieutenants in the military are for the most part entry level but with significant education/training on what their job is supposed to be.  That is not true for our organization.  when dealing with Emergency Services if you went into a briefing wearing lieutenant bars on your collar...some may think you are the senior person from your agency.  Sorry to rant on but when dealing with outside agencies we should just have more training for those we consider officers in our organization.  It's about managing expectations.

[PHall]

Just to let you and anyone else thats interested know, approximatley 90 days ago the Army changed its policy and will no longer allow candidates into OCS unless they have their bachelors degree.  The only direct commissions authorized now are for licensed medical and law professionals.
CPT Brown
Health Services Officer
SC Wing, CAP

You mean the Army finally decided to get in step with the other services on this? About time...

[necigrad]

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I find it interesting that many SMs really enjoy holding Officer grade, and any benefits/courtesies that come with it, but then have an issue with any minimum standards for Officers, such as a Bachelor's degree when they should be happy they are "Officers" to begin with as a result of no real CAP commissioning standards.

I wonder if by CAP establishing such standards, it would help the AF (etc) take CAP a bit more seriously and as competent professionals rather than essentially rolling their eyes at CAP members wearing Officer grade, as soon as they learn that CAP's path to commissioning is all of: Join (HS Graduate) + wait 6 months = 2d Lt.


Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

Don't come here much, so apologies for reviving a two week old thread.

This thread was started by someone claiming that SOS was a REQUIREMENT for promotion in CAP.  Sadly, no one said "No, it's not".

Now, DBlair, I don't have the stats, but I wanted (and still do) to take SOS, and depending on how that went, eventually ACSC and AWC.  I'm a civilian, never having been in the military, and would like to delve into the PME, but with caution.  Alas, I only have an AOS, and and currently working on a AA and AAS at a 3.74 GPA (Early World Lit killed me ;-)).  The fact that I don't have a BA or BS has absolutely zero reflections on my abilities, in life, work, or CAP.  Because CAP has no Enlisted path, the Officer track is what it is.  Whether there should be one is another debate, but until that changes, even suggesting that a SM should be required to have a degree to advance is absurd.  I've been in CAP for 5 years now, and in that time I've done everything I can fit into my schedule that includes FT work, PT school, and volunteering in two different organizations.  Those that know me know that I'm somewhat intelligent, always seeking to learn more, and participate in every activity I can.

My rank of Captain does not represent what it does to you.  To me it represents what I've done in our organization and how I've sought to improve myself in the same.  That is what my rank means to me, to CAP, and it should to you, now, when I was a 2Lt four years ago, or when I'm a LtC whenever that might eventually happen.    Please don't put something false onto what I've earned because you misunderstand.

EDIT:  Also DBlair, I do apologize, I seem to have mixed slightly into my reply to you comments about other posts as well.