Major and above not able to take SOS at Air University

[Short Field]

IIRC, there was also a series of incidents a few years ago with the control of other tests at the squadron level that caused them to actually stop testing for a while.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, just wondering, where it says that (that RSC is the way)?

Also, we still can take SOS, and it will still count toward Lt. Col., it just has to be done when one is a captain. 

So I am not sure that I understand your reasoning.

The intention is to have a member ready for Level IV complete a week-long, in-residence course. Getting an SOS waiver was a "nice to have" for those
who just "can't get to RSC".  There's always a reason, yet the majority eventually get there, one way or the other.  Sitting in your home
completing a correspondence course will check the box, but it does not provide the same experience that RSC or NSC does.  There are plenty of members who haven't "done" CAP for more than a 2-3 hour stretch once a month - being locked in for a week gives you a different perspective.

There is also the issue of SOS not exactly being "CAP-Centric".  You won't get the CAP details you would with RSC, nor the hallway networking with your peers from all over the region.

Is it a gateway?  Yes.  So is the OBC.  Some of this is likely intended as a litmus test to see if your CAP interest and involvement are
at a full-on level when necessary.  Field grade officers are supposed to be looking to serve at the Wing or higher.  Does everyone?  No, but in the military
you would be or you wouldn't likely be getting the promotion at all.

Anyone who has served in a wing level or higher staff position knows that they can't be successful doing it a few hours a month, there's just too
much responsibility and too many people counting on what you set in motion - not to mention conferences, unit visits, and the occasional "fun" thing
you joined for originally.  If you aren't able to get to an RSC, you probably won't be able to put in the time at the Wing or region as the grade normally would be intended.

For those who can't or don't want to give up the time.  No harm, no foul. it's not like it won't be there next year, and "not being a Lt. Col." isn't going to
hold you back from doing anything.  The year I went to RSC, it was that or NESA, I had to make a choice and I chose RSC.  Now it looks like my
prospects for NESA in the next few years will be limited.  Kaysarahsarah.

[tonyairplane]

Eclipse,

I can appreciate your old school line of thought.  Though I don't know how you think you know what the CAP's intention is.

But how does what you are saying make any sense in light of the fact that CAP officers can still take and use SOS toward Lt Col? 

Nowhere in the reg. do I see the word waiver in relation to SOS.  It is either an accepted equivalent or it isn't, and CAP says it is. 

It is just that the AF now wants it taken by Captains and below.  But CAP didn't tell us, so us majors are stuck with the 9 day course.  But captains aren't.

I hope that I have articulated my concern clearly, or have YOU hit a wall of misunderstanding?

[Eclipse]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

[ZigZag911]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

I don't recall any distinction being made...wait, a minute, yes there is: folks who complete the AU courses get an extra doodad (also known as attachment) on their Garber  (bronze star for SOS) or Wilson (bronze star for ACSC, silver for AWC) ribbon, per CAPR 39-3. para. 15 e & f.

If anything, this sounds as if the AU courses are preferred.

[AirDX]

Here's the breakdown of officers in my wing:

7   Col.
39   Lt. Col.
28   Maj.
60   Capt.
57   1st Lt.
53   2d Lt.
25   SM

Not exactly a pyramid, quite a bulge at captain.  In fact, a full 2/3 of those are "Level 1" captains, so are mission related or professional appointments.

We're then thin on majors compared to LTCs.  Over half of the majors and 1/3 of the LTCs though are Level 1 only - which tells me they are former or current active duty officers.

Not to reignite the debate on advanced grade... but just a data point.  We do not really have the nice pyramidal rank distribution that AD does.  You could divide it into broader categories, such as CGO vs. FGO, and then it does look like a better distribution.

But honestly, until rank below Col. has some meaning beyond personal achievement, I don't really care.

[Eclipse]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

I don't recall any distinction being made...wait, a minute, yes there is: folks who complete the AU courses get an extra doodad (also known as attachment) on their Garber  (bronze star for SOS) or Wilson (bronze star for ACSC, silver for AWC) ribbon, per CAPR 39-3. para. 15 e & f.

If anything, this sounds as if the AU courses are preferred.

The stars are awarded to recognize that the member completed a college-level course audited by the USAF.  That doesn't mean it is the "preferred" manner to complete the requirement.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

[PHall]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Well the Promoting Authority for Lieutenant Colonel is the Region Commander. So your "problem" may not be at the Wing level.

[N Harmon]

One could also spin this as the AF saying that CAP Majors are equivalent to AF Majors   

One could, but I would much rather see it as the Air Force is going to hold CAP officers closer to the standards they hold their own officers to than they have before. A good thing, IMO, and would do well for our relationship with them.

[flyboy53]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

Although I, too, am a SOS grad, I would believe your problem getting promoted above major is either because you're not noticed enough at wing level and higher, or its a standard within your wing.

I noticed a lot of PA Wing related information on your CAP TALK ID. I started in the PA Wing as a cadet and early on as a senior member. Years ago, you saw very few officers above the grade of major unless they were assigned to wing headquarters. You saw, instead, a lot of officers transfer to surrounding wings to make rank and then they returned.

If I were you, I would make my promotion intentions known to the chief of staff or vice wing commander and then get advice on how to achieve your goal of promotion. You never know.....

[tonyairplane]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

Really, how do you think that you know that?  Where do you get your "reality, preferred, and clearly" from?  Even if you have some reason for saying it, then how do you explain that CAP is expanding the use of distance learning?  (eg, CLC)

Bottom line:  SOS is an approved equivalent for RSC; and CAP and AU have a misunderstanding as to the maximum level at which it can be taken.  Hopefully CAP will tell all captains to take it before getting promoted; or fix the discrepancy.

[ßτε]

You have another option. ACSC will also count for RSC and is available to CAP majors.

[SARDOC]

Really, how do you think that you know that?  Where do you get your "reality, preferred, and clearly" from?  Even if you have some reason for saying it, then how do you explain that CAP is expanding the use of distance learning?  (eg, CLC)

I have to agree with Eclipse.  In the last conversations I've had with the Professional Development Director at NHQ.  She says she would rather even not have the USAF classes even as options because they don't teach you anything about how our organization works.  She admits that it is very difficult offering a quality professional development program across the country so that they still offer those as alternatives but not really equivalents.

[Short Field]

In the last conversations I've had with the Professional Development Director at NHQ.  She says she would rather even not have the USAF classes even as options because they don't teach you anything about how our organization works. 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:
I took SOS by correspondence and was a Distinguished Graduate in the in-residence course.  There is very little that translates to CAP that a decent college level management course wouldn't also cover - and probably cover better because it wouldn't come with the assumption you have the UMCJ to back up your orders.  The gap becomes even greater and the utility even less with ACSC and AWC.  Yes, you can learn something in those courses - but very little will apply to CAP. 

[MSG Mac]

Bottom line is that it's an Air Force course so we have to play by Air force rules which are if you haven't taken SOS as a Captain, you will never be a Major.

[ZigZag911]

.

The stars are awarded to recognize that the member completed a college-level course audited by the USAF.  That doesn't mean it is the "preferred" manner to complete the requirement.
[/quote]

But there is nothing in the regs to give preference to the in class courses, either.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

Although I, too, am a SOS grad, I would believe your problem getting promoted above major is either because you're not noticed enough at wing level and higher, or its a standard within your wing.

I noticed a lot of PA Wing related information on your CAP TALK ID. I started in the PA Wing as a cadet and early on as a senior member. Years ago, you saw very few officers above the grade of major unless they were assigned to wing headquarters. You saw, instead, a lot of officers transfer to surrounding wings to make rank and then they returned.

If I were you, I would make my promotion intentions known to the chief of staff or vice wing commander and then get advice on how to achieve your goal of promotion. You never know.....

I just left the wing staff, after a 20-month stint (the new boss said he wanted to "go in a different direction," but wouldn't enunciate why). While I won't go into personnel issues here, there were no dings on my record, and in fact, we survived (with a couple of commendables) a wing compliance inspection. And I resurrected a program (public affairs) that was all but dormant in this wing before I came aboard. New leadership, politics played, promotion didn't go to region and was denied at wing. Still waiting to hear exactly why.

And I probably said too much, even though I said I wouldn't. The advice I was given by a high-level personnel director? Wait this group of folks out, or go to another wing where I have friends (seriously). Should it be that way? Seems the whole thing runs against the core values, including my airing of dirty laundry in this thread, so I apologize.

As for Pennsylvania Wing? I was never a member there. The four years I spent in Pittsburgh, I remained in Ohio Wing, even being a squadron commander for a while. I helped present at a Pennsylvania Wing public affairs workshop in suburban Pittsburgh, and I was always available if they needed a hand, but I never transferred there. When I went from the 'Burgh to Florida the first time in 2005, it was a CAP transfer from Ohio to Florida... then later, from Florida to Michigan when I moved to Detroit, then back again to Florida. So I guess you can say I'm a carpetbagger.

[luscioman]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

This is actually changing. Look at the new online I-Cut course and the online SLS and CLC  courses that are being presented in many wings. There is less and less FTF courses coming.