New Senior Member

[DakRadz]

Mitchell Award is for cadets only.

Senior Members do have a variety of different awards, but the Mitchell is the only thing that gets you advanced rank in the USAF.

I've already talked to a AFR recruiter and he said that pretty any awards to i get from CAP can get me an early promotion to E3 prior leaving for BMT.

Heed my words.

When you get your contract, make sure it says E-3 in it BEFORE you sign.

Because guess what? The truth is this- my recruiter looked up the Air Force regulation on advanced promotions. Technically you must have earned the Mitchell Award.

IF the recruiter gets you E-3 anyway, good for you.
Thing is, most recruiters are good people. But a very few just want numbers. So they can tell you you'll get E-3 all they want- but the regs say they don't have to unless you have Mitchell, so you can't call them a liar if you end up with an E-1 contract.

[Extremepredjudice]

Yeah, make sure you get the NAMES of all the awards that get you E-3.

GET IT IN WRITING!!! Recruiters are known to be epic liars, and will tell you anything!

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING WITHOUT READING IT 3-4 TIMES! You don't want to miss something and end up with the shaft.

[Jepoy005]

Yeah, make sure you get the NAMES of all the awards that get you E-3.

GET IT IN WRITING!!! Recruiters are known to be epic liars, and will tell you anything!

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING WITHOUT READING IT 3-4 TIMES! You don't want to miss something and end up with the shaft.

looks like you have a deep hate on mil recruiters... hahah 

[Eclipse]

Jepoy005,

You're asking a lot of question which indicate you don't have a clear understanding of the opportunities, responsibilities, and basic framework of CAP.
I would suggest that you call the commander of the unit you plan to join, and either ask for a sit-down, or ask for a mentor to be assigned
to help you with all you will need to know.

You should do this sooner or later because the clock is ticking on your ability to join as a cadet. 

That and spend some time with the messages on this board.   Once you've had that conversation, you can then come back here with better, less general questions, and we can help your unit staff with some areas where they clearly have some misunderstandings.

Right now you have essentially every CAP opportunity door open to you.  Some will close when or if you decide to start as a Senior vs. cadet, and even as a cadet some are starting to begin to swing in the wind, but if you are looking towards a military career, it might be better to start out as a cadet, give that 6 months, and then see where you are.  You can always go senior anytime you want, but you can't go backwards once you've transitioned.

[Eclipse]

looks like you have a deep hate on mil recruiters...

He's just mad because most recruiters like bands heard by more people than the drummer's mom...

(There's also no MOS for "angst")

[coudano]

sometimes reserve components can get you e3 for stuff like signing up for six years, etc
its pretty rare to see someone sub e3 in the guard/reserve

but like they said, always read your contract!!!

[EMT-83]

Yeah, make sure you get the NAMES of all the awards that get you E-3.

GET IT IN WRITING!!! Recruiters are known to be epic liars, and will tell you anything!

DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING WITHOUT READING IT 3-4 TIMES! You don't want to miss something and end up with the shaft.

looks like you have a deep hate on mil recruiters... hahah 

Apparently, back when he was active duty his recruiter lied to him.

[a2capt]

I'm "pretty darn sure" that "not just pretty much any" CAP awards get you E3.

I'm more pretty much sure that you have a typical recruiter that will tell you anything to get another form signed.

Absolutely. Dead. Serious.

The Advanced Enlistment with regards to Civil Air Patrol, that very organization you are asking about right now, that earn the Mitchell Award only. No other CAP award gets you Advanced Enlistment per the regulation. There are always special circumstances, but those special circumstances always look promising until near the end when they figure they have you hooked, and they say "well, it didn't work out, but ... "

In fact, dare I say it, that hardly a thing senior member wise will probably do a thing for you at BMT in the short term, or medium term for that matter. The senior member program is simply not structured at all anything like the cadet program. 

Cadets have pretty much a set curriculum, seniors can pick one of three main focuses, and then dabble all over the place and none of them are anything like the cadet program.

So, you have a unit telling you that you need to be a senior member (Flight Officer, until Age 21, and don't let the word 'officer' get you thinking it means anything in the grand scheme of things. It does not.) and you have a recruiter telling you that "pretty much any CAP awards..."

Both of these statements are pretty darn close to pure bunk, designed to increase membership rolls and enlistment quotas and thats it.

As Eclipse said, you have pretty much every opportunity open. I'm darn convinced that taking the senior member side at your point right now will close right then and there. Start as a cadet, and realize you're at the point where a great many, age wise, would have exited the program with something, and put that behind you. Use it to your advantage. I will say, too- if it means New Century instead of Shawnee Mission,  as in you gotta drive across the city because a unit is telling you "you can't", when thats clearly not what the regulation says, maybe another unit is best. After all, you're looking for an opportunity to jumpstart something, if the receiving unit is not going to be supportive of it, then maybe you need another one.

There's a lot of misconceptions in the interpretation of CAP regulations, guidelines, et al, among CAP personnel, most don't set out with the intention of misleading, either. A great many simply take what their predecessor says as Gospel and press on. That can be passed down several "generations" before someone comes along and says "but ... thats not what it says here."

It's real world. Welcome to it. Just like that recruiter may even just be clueless. It's been discussed at great length here at how little the average airman or officer knows about their own Auxiliary.

[coudano]

It's not like being a CAP cadet is going to 'prepare' you for BMT either, it isn't.
I mean you might learn some basic marching, how to SOP a locker, and make a bed...
just enough to give you a false sense of security that you know what you are doing, which at BMT is just setting you up for lots and lots of push ups.

If you join as a cadet, you need to understand that it takes 19-20 months to get to the Mitchell.
That's minimum time in grade, assuming that you get all of the other boxes checked off every two months, AND that you demonstrate appropriate capability and maturity along the way.
Not to mention that certainly for the first year or so of that, you are PROBABLY going to have someone 3-4 years younger than you "in charge" of you and giving you orders.


Really bottom line, the only reason I would really accept from someone 18 years old joining the cadet program is if they wanted to use its access to flight training.  And even that is a shaky deal (see other threads on it elsewhere).  And even then they would /still/ have to participate actively as cadets, and progress, and be bossed around by 14 year olds.  If they failed to participate actively in the cadet program they wouldn't get access to the airplane either.


You join CAP because you like and want to do CAP.
You join the reserve because you like and want to do USAF.
It's possible to do both simultaneously, however, they are not the same thing, one doesn't depend upon the other, and they are not interrelated.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It's not like being a CAP cadet is going to 'prepare' you for BMT either, it isn't.
I mean you might learn some basic marching, how to SOP a locker, and make a bed...
just enough to give you a false sense of security that you know what you are doing, which at BMT is just setting you up for lots and lots of push ups.

You join CAP because you like and want to do CAP.
You join the reserve because you like and want to do USAF.
It's possible to do both simultaneously, however, they are not the same thing, one doesn't depend upon the other, and they are not interrelated.

Says it as well as I could.

There are some MTI's who are jerks and really hate CAP (AF Times had a story where one Airman said his MTI told him "if you encounter CAP personnel, ignore them") and especially ex-CAP cadets who come into the Air Force thinking they know what they're doing (they don't, and the MTI will go out of his/her way to prove that).  I remember one asking a flight of trainees if any of them had ROTC experience...one trainee said, "Sir, I have something similar, the Civil Air Patrol..."  At that the MTI descended on him and screamed "I didn't say CIVIL AIR PATROL!  I don't care about the (series of very bad words) CIVIL AIR PATROL!"

I don't know of any CAP senior programs that get an Airman advanced grade...just cadet.

If a cadet earns Mitchell, s/he can get E-3 upon graduation from basic.  You don't wear the stripes until something like the 6th WOT.  Do not, repeat, with feeling, do NOT advertise your "E-3" status in BMT.  It will get you NO benefit.  You'll alienate your flight mates and your MTI will come up with very creative ways to impress upon you that you are just an Airman Basic.

I can't agree any more with the others who have stressed get it in writing!  On an enlistment contract, as with virtually everything else in the military, if it isn't on paper, it doesn't exist and didn't happen.  You don't want to go off to Lackland thinking you're going to be enlisted aircrew and end up open general and being put where the Air Force says.

In the ANG and AFRES, it's somewhat better because you're usually being "hired" to fill a specific vacancy in the unit, so you usually go to BMT with everything already in writing about your AFSC, tech school, etc.

[coudano]

If a cadet earns Mitchell, s/he can get E-3 upon graduation from basic.  You don't wear the stripes until something like the 6th WOT.

You get the pay grade from day 1.

You don't get to wear the stripes until graduation day.


However, your pay grade will probably be apparent to the other members of your flight, if at no other time, then when you all go to sign your pay roster.  Some people are going to be making more than others.
That said, basically everyone in the guard and reserve in your flight will be there as an E3, and maybe 1 or 2 of the active duty guys may have gotten it for some reason or another (CAP, AFJROTC, Eagle Scout, College Credits, whatever)

But he's right, it's nothing to brag about, if you want to get along with your flight mates.
There's a saying...  rank among airmen is like virtue among prostitutes

or something like that

[coudano]

I remember one asking a flight of trainees if any of them had ROTC experience...one trainee said, "Sir, I have something similar, the Civil Air Patrol..."  At that the MTI descended on him and screamed "I didn't say CIVIL AIR PATROL!  I don't care about the (series of very bad words) CIVIL AIR PATROL!"

That's just a good ole MTI trick.  Asking a specific question and busting anyone who answers anything other than the specific answer...

Another Example:
MTI:  Who here is six feet tall
(everyone who is six feet tall or taller raises their hand)
MTI then destroys the guy who is 6'1" because he didn't ask "who is 6 feet tall or taller"

In terms of appointing dorm chief and element leaders, and other positions, the MTI can basically assign randomly if he so chooses.  It doesn't matter, and he is restricted by very little.  That said if he is discriminating based on things like race he may be breaking the law and certainly the NCO creed.  It happens anyway.  If he is discriminating based on things like JROTC vs BSA vs CAP, that's not breaking any specific rules, but it's still kind of dirtbaggish in my opinion.

[Eclipse]

We get our shorts in a bunch because some MTI might say something bad about CAP - they say something bad about everyone.  You're not there
to be built up, you're there to be equalized.

Your response to the equalization is what they are watching, it's all just part of their job.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We get our shorts in a bunch because some MTI might say something bad about CAP - they say something bad about everyone.

They do (although they're not supposed to use racial/ethnic slurring any more - doesn't mean it doesn't happen), but they are supposed to be the "best of the best" the Air Force has to offer (especially Blue Ropes) and in terms of professionalism it does not reflect well on them to disrespect one component of the Air Force, given that they are a new Airman's introduction to the Air Force.

Yes, I know they badmouth the Guard and Reserve, too (heard it - loudly) and probably any MAJCOM or AFSC except their own, but I suppose I take the "excellence in all we do" in somewhat of a different sense than some of them do.

[Ned]

Yes, I know they badmouth the Guard and Reserve, too (heard it - loudly) and probably any MAJCOM or AFSC except their own, but I suppose I take the "excellence in all we do" in somewhat of a different sense than some of them do.

It's part of the game.  And frankly, part of the fun.

I drew a lot of extra fire on my position from the (combat arms) DIs by telling them I hoped to serve in the Finance Corps "if I can prove myself" and volunteering a number of Finance and JAG corps jodies on our runs. (" . . . calculating the ultimate yield / Finance can't even find the field." or " admired for my impressive girth / all my clients go to Leavenworth.")

Ahh, good times.

[Jepoy005]

this thread is getting interesting... hahaha

this is what me and my afr recruiter had in discussion:

Me - is there any way that i could get an early promotion to e3 prior bmt?
Rec - yeh, you could either get it by joining CAP, college credits and so forth..
Me - CAP? is there like a specific award that i need to get?
Rec - Any awards you get from CAP can actually get you an early promotion to e3.....
Me - Any awards? 

Like you guys said that only the MITCheLL award will get me an early promotion to e3....

Really confuse here.... 

hahahaha

If i dont get the early promotion by earning any CAP award then my college credits will do  :angel:

Tnx

[Eclipse]

They might, or they might not.

Make sure understand the word "eligible", that's important.  Until the paper is signed, it's all academic.  Remember, a recruiter's job is to entice you to join, that makes them, at the most basic level, a salesman.  Recruiters will paint the most optimistic light and the most smooth path to any MOS you are interested in, but in a lot of cases their "best path" requires a lot of stars to align, and rarely happen.   Caveat your Emptors.

What you should be taking from this is that CAP is an excellent way to get an intro to paramilitary structure, and completing Mitchell will
grant you eligibility for E3 in the USAF (as well as other services such as the Navy and the Army), but there are also other ways to get there (or closer)
including participating in the DEP, college work, ROTC, etc.

However, the prestigious "Any Award" is not likely to do it (even with multiple clasps).

[coudano]

The recruiter may be operating on "old" information.

The Mitchell used to be the first milestone in the cadet program, therefore to say that 'any CAP (cadet) milestone award' works, would have been true.  Meaning if you had any of them, you at least had the Mitchell.

Obviously that ignores changes in the program (inclusion of the Wright Brothers Award), as well as the possibility that the  member approaching is a Senior member who has never been a cadet.

[Extremepredjudice]

looks like you have a deep hate on mil recruiters...

He's just mad because most recruiters like bands heard by more people than the drummer's mom...

(There's also no MOS for "angst")

How do I impress upon you, they are major bands!
Almost all of them have gone on The Warped Tour (The largest tour, with over 120 bands, happens each year)

I don't hate Military Recruiters. I have a friend that is an army recruiter.... By his own admission, he lies and cheats people all the time.

I also know a couple people that military recruiters tried to lie and give them a different deal. With these experiences, and talking to ex-military, I have come to the logical conclusion that military recruiters lie, a lot.

If someone can explain why that aren't and give sufficient evidence, then I will change my mind.

[Ford73Diesel]

I have to echo something that was said earlier.... Why wait to enlist?

Don't delay your enlistment to get advanced rank.

Here are my reasons you should enlist sooner than later:

1. Many schools accept military ACE credits. This might eliminate some BS classes you have to take.
2. Scholastic benefits (tuition assistance, GI bill, book grants etc)
3. You might not be able to enlist later. I joined (CGR) after 2 years of college. Between basic training and "A"  school I got stung by a bee and found out I was allergic to bees. I very likely would not have been able to enlist ( if I was lucky a waiver, but that is unlikely.....) if I waited until after I finished college like my parents wanted me to.
4. Get your reserve career started now.

Don't join the reserves if you plan on going AD enlisted later on. You will be considered prior service and last I checked the AF does not take prior service.

With that said, being a CAP cadet helped me at basic training, not tremendously, but it did help. I did not mention it to the company commanders, but I doubt they would have cared or said any snide remarks because they asked for anyone with cadet experience.... E-3 wasn't bad either, but I would have got that with college credits anyway. A lot of people make basic training seem really hard core and worse than it is. True, it does suck, but one year later you will forget almost everything.

While recruiters don't lie (or at least not supposed to) they withhold the truth sometimes. My recruiter hooked me up pretty good, but I have heard some horror stories. Get everything in writing before you sign.

I am going to be honest, I don't think you will gain too much from the cadet program at your age. While cadets have joined at 18, the ones who are successful are the minority. (no I don't have any hard data on this, based off personal experience in CAP over 9 years) If you are joining CAP to help you in the AF, then perhaps you should talk to your squadron commander and see what CAP is all about and if it can truly help you. As I mentioned earlier, getting E-3 is not as big as it seems. I would not wait to enlist so I could come in at E-3.

My reserve experience is with the Coast Guard, so the AF may be slightly different.

Hope this helps.

Mark
Former Cadet
Current CGR and Senior Member