Ground Team Radio Equipment Table of Allowance Modification/Equipment Waivers?

[RADIOMAN015]

Ground teams don't need a third VHF radio.

Our corporate equipment does not need to be utilized for "other", and the capability, as is, is a constant temptation for members to
be adding prohibited frequencies. Just in case.

In short.

No.

What someone programs (frequencies, radio systems) into their PERSONAL compliant portable VHF radio, not related to Civil Air Patrol is their business, and not yours or anyone else in Civil Air Patrol.  We only control what they do on CAP radio frequencies.  I know call fire fighters/EMT's who are also CAP members, that also have their local FD's and mutual aid frequencies programmed into their portables.    Some amateur radio guys/gals might have some amateur repeaters programmed in.  It is what it is.

As far as the corporate radio equipment goes, some wings do have certain state agencies/state mutual aid coordination frequencies programmed into their EF Johnson equipment, via appropriate coordination/approval per the regulation.         

You should give members more credit than you do for having appropriate self discipline and NOT using other radio systems unless there's an emergency. 
RM     

[Eclipse]

You should give members more credit than you do for having appropriate self discipline and NOT using other radio systems unless there's an emergency. 

You almost made to the end of your response without raising the "just in case" flag.

"Self discipline" is not necessary when the option is not available.  You and I both know we're not talking about members with multiple ES jobs who
use the radio(s) in both cases.  We're talking about comm guys who think a 250-channel radio isn't enough, and program every local agency "just in case".  The types who monitor military communications and then publish call signs on open forums.

News flash:  We have no business on those frequencies, and if we jump in their traffic, they will have no idea who or what we are.  In cases where we have official need to communicate with another agency, they will either hand us a radio (common), or their freqs will be part of the wing's official programming, including when and if we are to use it.

[davidsinn]

Locally yet, I haven't recommended licenses for any cadet VHF portables.   We have an in wing source that sells Motorola model HT1000 to wing members only for a very good price, but of course this is only 16 channels, so basically it will fit the wing's repeaters, and standard nationwide simplex channels, with no other real capability.

What other "capability" is necessary?

Out of wing operation such as staffing an NCSA or helping a neighboring wing on a search or disaster?

That is why we have a national comm plan. All repeaters use common tones which are programed as R##. All you need is the repeater number.

[RADIOMAN015]

You should give members more credit than you do for having appropriate self discipline and NOT using other radio systems unless there's an emergency. 

You almost made to the end of your response without raising the "just in case" flag.

"Self discipline" is not necessary when the option is not available.  You and I both know we're not talking about members with multiple ES jobs who
use the radio(s) in both cases.  We're talking about comm guys who think a 250-channel radio isn't enough, and program every local agency "just in case".  The types who monitor military communications and then publish call signs on open forums.

News flash:  We have no business on those frequencies, and if we jump in their traffic, they will have no idea who or what we are.  In cases where we have official need to communicate with another agency, they will either hand us a radio (common), or their freqs will be part of the wing's official programming, including when and if we are to use it.

YES, IF CAP is authorized on a particular public safety radio system there's specific unit numbers (callsigns) assigned for that system to CAP and the wing comm guru/CUL will advise appropriate personnel.  I agree with you that IF it can't get the radio system programmed in our equipment because it is other than high band VHF or requires certain confirmation signalling, or is a trunked radio system, than likely we would borrow the appropriate radio equipment.

Actually, I only have a CAP owned/issued Tait mobile that I use, and have other radio equipment I'm appropriately licensed for that I could use IF it became necessary (BUT I would first try to use my cellphone on any CAP mission), which again should be of no concern to CAP.  I'm not aware of any communications officers in my wing using any unauthorized frequencies, and I'm VERY surprised that some with such high "former" command level experience would be making baseless derogatory comments about any CAP communications officers.        

As far as military (or civilian) aircraft call signs are concerned very easy to monitor on the typical publicly available Air Traffic Control frequencies, published by the FAA.  Examples:  http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KBAF/procedures   Also Air Traffic Control facilities transmit at the same time on a VHF as well as a UHF frequency, so civilian aircraft can also hear the ground side giving instructions to the military aircraft via their callsign.   Likely a good aerospace education discussion subject for senior, as well as cadet members.  Personally I find it very interesting to always know what is going on in the skies above my home or workplace, etc.  BTW those F15's have encryption available for their radios and IF they are talking with HUNTRESS on an intercept they could "at will" encrypt their voice radio transmissions.  Kind of surprises me that some people with such alleged vast experience in CAP, lack an understanding of how the ATC radio system operates.
RM     

[arajca]

Locally yet, I haven't recommended licenses for any cadet VHF portables.   We have an in wing source that sells Motorola model HT1000 to wing members only for a very good price, but of course this is only 16 channels, so basically it will fit the wing's repeaters, and standard nationwide simplex channels, with no other real capability.

What other "capability" is necessary?

Out of wing operation such as staffing an NCSA or helping a neighboring wing on a search or disaster?

That is why we have a national comm plan. All repeaters use common tones which are programed as R##. All you need is the repeater number.

64 repeater pairs, 6 simplex, 6 tac repeater pairs = 76 channels. Not including any wing specific channels or interop channels (which, btw, we are authorized to use and do not require a separate license.) Of course my wing has 22 repeaters, so your 16 channel radio isn't a valid option here. Yes, that's what I tell those who are looking for a personal radio.

[SarDragon]

I came up with 76 repeater pairs, plus the others you mentioned. There are are 38 CTCSS tones, times two (primary and alternate freqs). Where do  we vary?

[arajca]

CAP does not use every CTCSS tone, only 32 of them.

[SarDragon]

OK, I didn't have the right list in front of me.

[wuzafuzz]

What someone programs (frequencies, radio systems) into their PERSONAL compliant portable VHF radio, not related to Civil Air Patrol is their business, and not yours or anyone else in Civil Air Patrol.         

True, with a MAJOR caveat.  The instant one of those folks pops up on some other agencies channels without proper permissions and identifies themselves as a CAP member, we have problem.   I once met a ham who was also a civilian sheriff's dept employee.  One day he used the "just in case doctrine" to use his ham radio to call dispatch.  He spent a lot of time explaining himself when he got back to work. 

Take a spin through the rules.  Such actions are only permissible when there is IMMEDIATE threat to lives and NO other means are available.  Even then, plan on a lot of debates with local public safety types who are clueless about the intricacies of FCC regulations.

[wuzafuzz]

Locally yet, I haven't recommended licenses for any cadet VHF portables.   We have an in wing source that sells Motorola model HT1000 to wing members only for a very good price, but of course this is only 16 channels, so basically it will fit the wing's repeaters, and standard nationwide simplex channels, with no other real capability.

What other "capability" is necessary?

Out of wing operation such as staffing an NCSA or helping a neighboring wing on a search or disaster?

That is why we have a national comm plan. All repeaters use common tones which are programed as R##. All you need is the repeater number.

64 repeater pairs, 6 simplex, 6 tac repeater pairs = 76 channels. Not including any wing specific channels or interop channels (which, btw, we are authorized to use and do not require a separate license.) Of course my wing has 22 repeaters, so your 16 channel radio isn't a valid option here. Yes, that's what I tell those who are looking for a personal radio.

A truly radio savvy person could get away with fewer channels IF they have a radio programmed to permit user selection of CTCSS tones and DCS codes.  Set a couple channels for the major freq pairs and choose tones as needed.  Of course they would need to be an uber radio geek and have their handy cheat cheat of tones/codes available at all times.  For most folks, total non-starter.  Heck, I'm a commgeek and wouldn't want to mess with it. 

Having said all that, 16 channels wouldn't cut it if you wanted any interop channels.  But it could work as a CAP only radio. It would be ugly, but it could work.

[Eclipse]

The only thing I've ever used on an "away-team mission" in another state / region is the first six simplex.  Anything else was either briefed by
the standard designation as Davidsinn said, or a radio / vehicle was handed over already programmed.

No excitement, no Armageddon, no big deal.

For me, or any other member, to spend any time or calories trying to make sure they have the repeater and channel plan "ready", "just in case" for a wing 3 regions away, that probably won't get deployed themselves, let alone call from outside, is just a waste of time.

[ol'fido]

BITD, we were lucky to get a van with a radio in it let alone two or three handhelds for the GTLs. Having a radio for everybody? Only if we bought those little cheap VOX radios that came out in the mid-80s. They were about the size of a pack of cigarettes and had a little headset and boom mike. You could tell how rough the going was because you heard everybody breathing hard into their mikes.

I went out on a few GT missions(actually more than a few) where I had to find a pay phone to get comms back to base.

After the eval a few weeks ago, I don't think I would want everbody to have VHF. The channel got too crowded with us in the air trying to work an air-ground coordination with two ground teams and another another aircraft trying to guide a third GT in on an ELT. Find a non-VHF alternative to the ISR.

[arajca]

I think that instead of Air-Air 1, Air-Air 2, Air-Ground, and Tac 1, we should have Tac 1, 2, 3, and 4. Then it won't matter what you're using the channel for. If you need three A-G channels, done. Two gnd-gnd channels, no problem. An air-air channel, ok.