Charging Cadets

[norcalcadet90]

I am the cadet comander with a unit in CAWG. My unit is currently trying to inact a policy where we would charge cadets a 10 dollar deposit for activities. This it not for any acitivty fees, but simply as an incentive to get more participation to the event. After a lenghty discussion with the cadets, the cadet staff and myself learned this would be more of a reason not to go for the cadets. We also do not feel that this is allowed in the regulation, but we are not sure where exactly to find this to research it. I would truly appreciate any help.


Thanks

[jimmydeanno]

There is no regulatory restriction.  It sounds like you are having cadets sign up, but not show up.  I think you'll just find people not signing up until the very last minute, or showing up day of to stop from being out 10.

It's a leadership lesson that needs to be learned.  Don't show up, its a leadership issue that i'd bring up during review boards.

[norcalcadet90]

I agree, we have had a few recent incidents were cadets make a commitment and dont attend, but I'd think it would make more sense to have a one cadet not show up, than have no cadets show up, becuase they don't want to pay

[cap235629]

I agree, we have had a few recent incidents were cadets make a commitment and dont attend, but I'd think it would make more sense to have a one cadet not show up, than have no cadets show up, becuase they don't want to pay

There is no such thing as a free lunch. In our Squadron the cadets are expected to raise money for the things they would like to do, just like in the real world.

It is amazing how much more frugal cadets become when the money being spent on them they had to earn rather than just sticking their hand out and expecting someone else to pay the bill.

Not to mention the fact that expecting a free lunch is the definition of self centered.

[Eclipse]

+1 Welcome to the big boy pool.

There seems to be this misguided notion that cadets should get a free ride, be chauffeured to activities, get free uniforms, and that the time
and resources of unit leaders are free.

What invariably happens is that those leaders get burned out both financially and psychically and then no one can understand why the unit collapsed.

You can't leave a busy CFI who is giving up billable hours to O-Rides, standing on the ramp with no-shows too many times before they simply disengage.

Likewise, many activities have a fixed entry cost to get them started, whether or not cadets attend.  Requiring a deposit put the investment on the
side of the cadets and also helps insure no one is left with a big bill.

Completely reasonable and acceptable within the program.

If a deposit against participation fees is actually stopping cadets from participation, then an adjustment needs to be made, because either the cadets
don't "get it", or the activity is not deemed worth the money.  Either way the deposit system worked.

This year we had about 10 cadets send pre-applications to attend encampment.  The ability to pre-register via email was provided as a convenience
to all parties to allow people to get into the system and allow the activity to better plan.  We viewed these as a commitment, but because there
was no money attached to the "Yes", the cadets clearly did not, and more than a few were "shocked" we made a big deal when they
did follow through (we even had a few actually Form 31's show up with no checks and then the cadets were no-shows).

[norcalcadet90]

Sir, my squardon does lots of fundrasing, we actually had 3 events just in the month of June, the cadets are not worried so much about having to pay 10 dollars to help cover activity costs, as so much as my Sq saying "attend activities, or pay us 10 dollars" so far, family deaths, hospital trips, and graduations have not counted as valid excuses. I just feel my Sq is going about trying to fix the attendance problem the wrong way

[Eclipse]

Sir, my squardon does lots of fundrasing, we actually had 3 events just in the month of June, the cadets are not worried so much about having to pay 10 dollars to help cover activity costs, as so much as my Sq saying "attend activities, or pay us 10 dollars" so far, family deaths, hospital trips, and graduations have not counted as valid excuses. I just feel my Sq is going about trying to fix the attendance problem the wrong way

You've lost me - is this a $10 deposit to sign up for an activity, or a $10 fine for not showing to activities the unit schedules?

[norcalcadet90]

My apologizes, i phrased it wrong, they have been calling it a deposit, but it is more of a fine, they have not told us where the 10 dollars is going, whether its going to the Sqs general fund, or if its going to reward the cadets that do attend, i am just unsure

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah...the fine this isn't cool in my book.  If you're going to institute a deposit system, that's fine.  But it should work like this:

1) Activity announcement.  $15 to attend, $5 deposit required on sign-up, non-refundable.  Remaining $10 due prior to participation.

2) Activity Time.  Cadets pay the remaining $10 and go, or those who deposited money lose their $5 for not showing.  Either way, the activity happens and still has sufficient funds.

3) Cadets that keep signing up and losing their money get counseled during a review board about making commitments and not following through. 

If the unit is doing a deposit and saying if you sign up, you owe us $10 regardless, it's different than "fining" cadets who didn't show up but never signed up.

[norcalcadet90]

You know what, im sorry for asking. I am 3 days away turning 21, and I needed just a little more help deciding whether or not to go Senior. it is becuase of the fact that Sr members automaticlly assume that they are infinitly more wise, and responsible than cadets that really erks me. seeing as i had an 18 yr old flight officer as a TAC at an airshow when i was 20 that was allowed to come and go as he pleased, sit there and tell me not to drink caffine on a hot day, while he is on his second cup of coffee....im sorry it is becuase of seniors like this that i will NOT become a senior member, for i do not wish to associate with people of that character

[Eclipse]

My apologizes, i phrased it wrong, they have been calling it a deposit, but it is more of a fine, they have not told us where the 10 dollars is going, whether its going to the Sqs general fund, or if its going to reward the cadets that do attend, i am just unsure

"more of a fine" still isn't clear.

An actual fine is not cool and likely not allowed under the regs unless it is part of an approved unit SOP.

Please provide the 1-2-3.

[Eclipse]

You know what, im sorry for asking. I am 3 days away turning 21, and I needed just a little more help deciding whether or not to go Senior. it is becuase of the fact that Sr members automaticlly assume that they are infinitly more wise, and responsible than cadets that really erks me. seeing as i had an 18 yr old flight officer as a TAC at an airshow when i was 20 that was allowed to come and go as he pleased, sit there and tell me not to drink caffine on a hot day, while he is on his second cup of coffee....im sorry it is becuase of seniors like this that i will NOT become a senior member, for i do not wish to associate with people of that character

What are you talking about?  All we've asked are direct, relevant questions to your incomplete description of the situation.

[caphornbuckle]

Troll?

[NCRblues]

You know what, im sorry for asking. I am 3 days away turning 21, and I needed just a little more help deciding whether or not to go Senior. it is becuase of the fact that Sr members automaticlly assume that they are infinitly more wise, and responsible than cadets that really erks me. seeing as i had an 18 yr old flight officer as a TAC at an airshow when i was 20 that was allowed to come and go as he pleased, sit there and tell me not to drink caffine on a hot day, while he is on his second cup of coffee....im sorry it is becuase of seniors like this that i will NOT become a senior member, for i do not wish to associate with people of that character

So because some SM's answered your question, with real world reality, you make a life changing decision to abandon a program you have spent hundreds or more hours of your life in?

You wont get ahead in life if you quit or give up everytime someone disagrees with you, or proves your ideas wrong. I wish you really good luck, because your going to need it.

[EMT-83]

Well, at least you learned that life isn't fair. Some people never figure that out, so consider yourself ahead in the game.

[coudano]

Anyway, we have a "pay up front" policy on activities that run budgets, where we have to charge cadets to attend.
So the sign up and pay deadline is absolutely no later than the tuesday meeting before the activity

If you didn't sign up and pay by whatever that deadline is, then you don't get to participate.


If you sign up and pay, and then no show, you don't get a refund (AND your supervisor is probably going to be counseling you about integrity at your next review)

Any excess money gets deposited into the squadron general fund.

We got burned a few times, buying groceries for 25 people and only having 15 people show up with money to cover it (or something similar).  So now we charge up front...  if you no-show, the only problem we have is getting rid of the excess food that we bought for you, with the money you gave us (which is a much easier problem to solve)

[JC004]

You know what, im sorry for asking. I am 3 days away turning 21, and I needed just a little more help deciding whether or not to go Senior. it is becuase of the fact that Sr members automaticlly assume that they are infinitly more wise, and responsible than cadets that really erks me. seeing as i had an 18 yr old flight officer as a TAC at an airshow when i was 20 that was allowed to come and go as he pleased, sit there and tell me not to drink caffine on a hot day, while he is on his second cup of coffee....im sorry it is becuase of seniors like this that i will NOT become a senior member, for i do not wish to associate with people of that character

Seriously?  I don't understand.  You started a thread about cadet activities "fines" to test senior members...or something?

I don't see a bunch of senior members asking infinitely more wise and responsible in this thread.

I'm sorry you had a problem with a flight officer at an airshow. 

Have you considered not becoming a full-fledged adult?  I might recommend that you don't if this is your decision-making process for this kind of thing.  Just stay 20 years old if it bothers you that some adults might act more wise or responsible.  Scientifically and realistically, by definition, adults will be more wise and responsible.  Some adults will be less responsible.  Some will commit murders when a given teenager would never do such a thing.  This is part of the whole thing about humans much than it is about cadets and senior members.

[RADIOMAN015]

I am the cadet comander with a unit in CAWG. My unit is currently trying to inact a policy where we would charge cadets a 10 dollar deposit for activities. This it not for any acitivty fees, but simply as an incentive to get more participation to the event. After a lenghty discussion with the cadets, the cadet staff and myself learned this would be more of a reason not to go for the cadets. We also do not feel that this is allowed in the regulation, but we are not sure where exactly to find this to research it. I would truly appreciate any help.
Thanks

You need to get down to the root problem as to why your cadets are not attending the activities they said they would attend.  We found in some instances the parents knew of something that would conflict with the cadets attending the function BUT the cadet didn't know that when he/she committed.   Sometimes the cadets feel pressured to attend and say yes to avoid ridicule from their chain of command.   Sometimes they just get up that morning and decide that they are just not in the mood to be an active CAP member that day.

I don't know what your funding sources are, BUT IF you have to pay money per cadet to attend something and they don't show up, the parents/guardian do need to be made aware of the monetary loss costs.

The key issue again is that IF a cadet commits to an activity and doesn't show, at the next squadron meeting or even before that via a phone call you need to find out the reason why they didn't show up.  What is the percentage of no shows for your unit?
RM

[bassque]

You know what, im sorry for asking. I am 3 days away turning 21, and I needed just a little more help deciding whether or not to go Senior. it is becuase of the fact that Sr members automaticlly assume that they are infinitly more wise, and responsible than cadets that really erks me. seeing as i had an 18 yr old flight officer as a TAC at an airshow when i was 20 that was allowed to come and go as he pleased, sit there and tell me not to drink caffine on a hot day, while he is on his second cup of coffee....im sorry it is becuase of seniors like this that i will NOT become a senior member, for i do not wish to associate with people of that character

Lots of us became senior members after being cadets.  To me, it was a great reward to do so even though I had a pretty big gap between when I was a Cadet and now a SM.  There are always going to be bad apples in life but think of it this way, you get to break that mold and mentality if it runs so rampet in your organization.  Cadets need senior members who have been there done that to lead them.  I see it as a way to give back.  This organization gave me so much when I was growing up that I wanted to help other young people get the full benefit of CAP, much like I did.  I think if you look at it more that way then us vs them, you'd see a different perspective.

[bassque]

Troll?

I'm kinda starting to think so...