Wear of military service uniforms by retired officers while on CAP duty

[sandman]

Not jsut that, people move branches/specialties all the time inside a service, and people move between services quite a lot. Plus there's the guard. How many Guard Captains you think started in another service. You know I was watching a program last night about a Stryker Company in Iraq & they interviewed the Co XO extensively. He was wearing a CIB in top, SEAL & Navy para wings over his Army tape, then halo down on the pocket, and this was an active duty unit (B 5/20 2ID). That's going to get you some looks.

10 bucks says he was enlisted navy and then got his commission in the Army.  Happens all the time. It's a fresh start, not a transfer at same grade.

The current blue to green program isn't taking officers, to my knowlege. 

They are taking officers (some bonuses too) looking into it...

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure about how this got around to making CAP members into AF warrant officers..... seems like this would go better in one of the rank-specific threads. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree that I think SECAF could issue warrants against unpaid slots.  As for why he would, I was looking ahead at some of the missions to augment the Air Force, and as another way that SECAF could excercise control over CAP.  The Air Force would then have some authority to investigate wrongdoing directly, and take independent action against offending officers.

[DNall]

That would still put you over AF enlisted personnel. how you swing that w/o a mutiny? If I can say " this guy meets exactly the same requirements as an AF officer of that grade, boards & the whole bit, been in the same period of time, " that might get people to go along with it AFTER you've proven yourself, but but you got big big problems up to there.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

I realize that.  But at some point it has to be considered if we are going to assume duties in augmentation of the USAF.  For example, if we have an RN, she has to be able to order Medical Airman Snuffy to prepare Staff Sergeant Jones for his surgery.  A lot can be accomplished by what is called "Referent Power," knowing more about the task than your subordinates, but at some point there must be some legal and positional power there as well.   

Also, I'm not sure what would happen to people who hold military commissions concurrent with CAP membership.

[Dragoon]

Using medical is a good example for my favorite analogy.  If you go in to a military hospital stateside you will see somecivilian doctors and nurses giving direction to military orderlies.  It's a mixed force, and there are no problems.

The boss just sets up who's in charge of who, and everyone abides by it.  No need to give the civilian docs oak leaves.

I absolutly agree that if you give me general's stars, I'll get more instant compliance with my requests.  But I doubt anyone's gonna give them to me!   

[DNall]

Look... yeah that's a doctor giving orders to an orderly, who cares which one's in the military. Now put an off the street w/ no degree volunteer in a joint operations center & try to get a 20 year vetran NCO to follow their orders. Good freakin luck.

It isn't the officer insignia that gives you authority, it's an institutional reputation of competence & leadership. now, you're putting a CAP member in a place where they got not legal authority over anyone nut that given by the person that assigned them there & left the room right after. CAP with a reputation of exactly the opposite of competence - more like truck driver off the street thinks he's good enough to command my left.. uh foot, yeah we'll go with foot.

No, the way to gain acceptance is to meet the accepted standards. WAIT, reeread that sentence... the way to gain acceptance is to meet the accepted standards - got it? Okay, that's what we're going for. Step up to THEIR standards to be able to play in THEIR world. We're earning a level of institutional trust for the least among us that the AF believes is good enough to put us on the line defedning the country in place of them. Can we meet that now? Not in one little remote chance in hell!!! But, we can change that if we set our mind to it.

Also, you're not listening when I tell you Congress is willing to find only an AF Aux version of CAP that uses a military format & binds together every federal mission we can stretch ES to mean while carrying cadet programs & AE in service of the AF. They look at us as a coupon in paying for the AF. Outside that scenerio they refuse to give us a dime! And, that's final. If you're having trouble understanding that, please talk to your congressman about their views & those of others. It's a pretty widely held opinion & will carry the day, I assure you.

[Dragoon]

Look... yeah that's a doctor giving orders to an orderly, who cares which one's in the military. Now put an off the street w/ no degree volunteer in a joint operations center & try to get a 20 year vetran NCO to follow their orders. Good freakin luck.

It isn't the officer insignia that gives you authority, it's an institutional reputation of competence & leadership. now, you're putting a CAP member in a place where they got not legal authority over anyone nut that given by the person that assigned them there & left the room right after. CAP with a reputation of exactly the opposite of competence - more like truck driver off the street thinks he's good enough to command my left.. uh foot, yeah we'll go with foot.

No, the way to gain acceptance is to meet the accepted standards. WAIT, reeread that sentence... the way to gain acceptance is to meet the accepted standards - got it? Okay, that's what we're going for. Step up to THEIR standards to be able to play in THEIR world. We're earning a level of institutional trust for the least among us that the AF believes is good enough to put us on the line defedning the country in place of them. Can we meet that now? Not in one little remote chance in hell!!! But, we can change that if we set our mind to it.

There's a big difference between "meeting their standards" and "dressing like them."

We shouldn't put a guy into a job that he doesn't meet the standards for.  The civilian doctor, for example, is respected for his skills.  So he doesn't need oak leaves.

And we don't either.  We need to meet standards and let people know it.

We are NEVER going to meet the true standards for a line USAF officer.  Even if we went to all the schools.  Because, quite simply, part of those standards involve USAF experience.  The average USAF Lt Col has in excess of 16 years of USAF experience, either active or reserve.  Even if we set our timeline the same, our CAP Lt Col would have 16 years of CAP experience, not USAF experience.  It ain't the same, therefore HE aint the same.  He doesn't meet the expected standard.

But...he could be trained to do a given JOB to USAF standards.  Without the trappings of grade.

Also, you're not listening when I tell you Congress is willing to find only an AF Aux version of CAP that uses a military format & binds together every federal mission we can stretch ES to mean while carrying cadet programs & AE in service of the AF. They look at us as a coupon in paying for the AF. Outside that scenerio they refuse to give us a dime! And, that's final. If you're having trouble understanding that, please talk to your congressman about their views & those of others. It's a pretty widely held opinion & will carry the day, I assure you.

You're right.  I absolutely refute the fact that Congress wants a CAP that looks exactly like USAF.  I really don't think they care.

I don't think Congress wants us to produce officers interchangeable with USAF.

I don't think Congress cares if we wear golf shirts or BDUs, as long as we get the mission done.

You've provided no evidence to the contrary.  I've never heard a Congressman speak publically on any of the assertions above.  I certainly have read nothing like that in the Congressional register.

They want us to spend their money wisely and be effective.  If they wanted more than that, it would be in the law.  Or at the very least we'd be answering a bunch of Congressional Inquiries on why we don't have higher training standards for our officers.  Which, to my knowledge, has never happened.

If you've got facts the contrary, lay 'em on the table.