Question about ROA

[HGjunkie]

I have an odd situation with the BCUT training.

I've taken the course twice, and unless it's not the entire course (I've seen a powerpoint presentation and had a classroom activity) I've never been qualified for BCUT into any database I have access to (eServices, FLWG ROA query). I've also talked to my CC about this, and haven't been able to find out why I've never been put into the system as BCUT qualified.

Anyone have an idea? Thanks.

[Al Sayre]

Most likely, because it's fairly new to OpsQuals as a separate qualification, and you haven't done an SQTR that required it.

[HGjunkie]

Probably should elaborate on the training environments: The first time was a class during encampment for the staff for about 4 hours, and the second time was during a UDF training day for about an hour.

[SarDragon]

Has it ever been documented at Wing? Do you have a physical BCUT card? If so, put it into the system. See below.

All that may be OBE, depending on your wing. Here in CAWG, BCUTs are only good for two years.

The old entry into the SQTRs was done by the member, and validated by your ESO or CC.

Now, there's a specific place to document it, and the capacity to upload a scanned document, which you, as the member, should do. Again, validation is done by the ESO or CC.

[HGjunkie]

I never got a card showing I did the class. I *think* I was supposed to be mailed one, but my memory is hazy on that part. So, I don't have the ability to upload a document. Guess I have to wait 'till the next BCUT class.

[SarDragon]

Is there any kind of record from the encampment? Somebody, somewhere, should have a record.

[HGjunkie]

Is there any kind of record from the encampment? Somebody, somewhere, should have a record.

I have no clue. I signed a piece of paper saying I attended the class, but I don't know if that's even in existence anymore.

[vento]

Does FLWG use WMU?

We in CAWG still use this piece of old technology to record and track ROA and every member can print a new ROA card from the WMU.

[ol'fido]

Here in IL, there is a list put out by wing of persons authorized to teach and sign off on BCUT/ACUT training. Unless you BCUT is done or proctored by one of those individuals(or SETs), it will not count. In your wing, IDK.

[HGjunkie]

Does FLWG use WMU? 

No clue.

Here in IL, there is a list put out by wing of persons authorized to teach and sign off on BCUT/ACUT training. Unless you BCUT is done or proctored by one of those individuals(or SETs), it will not count. In your wing, IDK.

Never seen a list like that. But, I think the individuals who proctored the classes were well qualified to teach it (A Comms officer and an IC).

[ol'fido]

The problem is qualified versus authorized.

[HGjunkie]

The problem is qualified versus authorized.

Ahh, understood.

It's no biggie, I can wait until the next ROA class comes around my area and go to that. I just wish the previous classes had been documented in some way.

[sneakers]

I've been through 2 BCUT classes myself, and though others got the cards, I never did. But then, my Wing staff isn't known for being organized. They lose paperwork CONSTANTLY! 

[FastAttack]

if you are not on this list you do not have an ROA:

http://roa.communimatics.com/

gl

[Al Sayre]

if you are not on this list you do not have an ROA:

http://roa.communimatics.com/

gl

That's FL wing specific.  It doesn't show mine and I have both BCUT & ACUT

[DH]

Several things to consider here.
1st, ROA is Radio Operator Authorization. Radio operators are "authorized" by the Wing DC or designee. Once authorized, a member's authorization can be revoked by a Wing or higher Commander. The question of authorization should be directed to the Wing Director of Communication for answer.

An ROA card was required under the old CAP Reg. 100-1. It is no longer required as long as the Wing maintains a data base.

2nd, minimum training required for an ROA is BCUT. Completion of BCUT does not  necessarily grant authorization. Wings may allow automatic authorization if they choose, but are not required to do so.

It has only recently (in CAP terms) been set up so that BCUT and ACUT can show up on the 101 cards. Many Wings, including mine, are working through a backlog of training records. Again, this shows training completed, not necessarly authorization.

Short answer, email the DC for guidance, preferrably through the Unit Communications Officer so that everyone is one the same page.

[lordmonar]

If they have successfully completed the training.....why aren't they authorised to use radios?

This sort of thing is why CAP communications program really get's my blood boiling.

[arajca]

if you are not on this list you do not have an ROA:

http://roa.communimatics.com/

gl

That's FL wing specific.  It doesn't show mine and I have both BCUT & ACUT

The OP is from FLWG.

[HGjunkie]

I checked the communimatics site, I'm listed nowhere in it.

[lordmonar]

If you got proof of you BCUT and ACUT you can enter it into E-Services yourself.

[wuzafuzz]

If they have successfully completed the training.....why aren't they authorised to use radios?

This sort of thing is why CAP communications program really get's my blood boiling.

BCUT course completion does not always equal competency on the air.  I've seen lousy operators who cannot communicate effectively and seem to drop 50% of their IQ when they press the push-to-talk button.  Separate authorizations can also be useful if a member repeatedly fails to follow rules and protocol.

I'm not suggesting removing ROA's with wild abandon.  Every attempt should be made to educate members and provide opportunities to practice.  However, there does need to be some minimum performance standard and incentive to achieve and maintain that standard.  Ineffective communicators can ruin an otherwise great activity and even degrade operational safety.

[HGjunkie]

If you got proof of you BCUT and ACUT you can enter it into E-Services yourself.

That's the core problem though, I don't have proof.

[lordmonar]

BCUT course completion does not always equal competency on the air.  I've seen lousy operators who cannot communicate effectively and seem to drop 50% of their IQ when they press the push-to-talk button.  Separate authorizations can also be useful if a member repeatedly fails to follow rules and protocol.

Then you have identified the problem is a training one.   If your BCUT course is not producing effective communications......you need to make the training better.  Failure to follow the rules or inability to perform to the training standards means they need to be decertified in E-Sevices and retrained. 

I'm not suggesting removing ROA's with wild abandon.  Every attempt should be made to educate members and provide opportunities to practice.  However, there does need to be some minimum performance standard and incentive to achieve and maintain that standard.  Ineffective communicators can ruin an otherwise great activity and even degrade operational safety.

I agree.....that should be part and parsel of the BCUT training.

[RADIOMAN015]

If they have successfully completed the training.....why aren't they authorised to use radios?

This sort of thing is why CAP communications program really get's my blood boiling.

BCUT course completion does not always equal competency on the air.  I've seen lousy operators who cannot communicate effectively and seem to drop 50% of their IQ when they press the push-to-talk button.  Separate authorizations can also be useful if a member repeatedly fails to follow rules and protocol.

I'm not suggesting removing ROA's with wild abandon.  Every attempt should be made to educate members and provide opportunities to practice.  However, there does need to be some minimum performance standard and incentive to achieve and maintain that standard.  Ineffective communicators can ruin an otherwise great activity and even degrade operational safety.

The B Cut was originally more like a "learners permit", and with only a 2 hour presentation window would allow only a power point presentation.  Individuals didn't necessarily go on to really learn how to operate a radio because they had their "bling" (the radio card) and of course CAP had their great statistics of "operators trained".  The issue in our wing is 'training" doesn't necessarily mean "ability to successfully operate a radio".   So now per our wing we are to include actual hands on proficiency training with the B Cut.   What this means is that the number of personnel that can be trained at one time has to be limited to ensure effective training.  Also IF someone hasn't been next to a radio in a year, it's likely they aren't proficient any more and will need training again.

Difficult situation for us comm officers, and can result in some serious problems in the field and at mission base.  Hopefully everyone with a radio card at this time will recognize that we just to be sure that they can be relatively effective/proficient at operating the CAP radios in the inventory, so that we can satisfactorily support CAP's missions
RM     

[Spaceman3750]

Mission base this is ground team Alpha, over.

Ground team Alpha this is mission base, over.

Mission base, Alpha has a find, coordinates to follow, over.

...

Ground team Alpha Out.

I really don't get why operating the dang radio, like above is that difficult for some of our members... I'm not going to pretend that I have perfect radio ettiquite, I don't, but good grief. Teach our members how to do the above and change channels on the EFJs and you're good to go. I don't really care about a whole lot other than that. Have the CUL tell me what designator to be on so I can go focus on what the GBD told me to do.

Disclaimer: I've done ACUT and have my technician ticket, but I don't need all of that to talk to mission base.

[RADIOMAN015]

I really don't get why operating the dang radio, like above is that difficult for some of our members... I'm not going to pretend that I have perfect radio ettiquite, I don't, but good grief. Teach our members how to do the above and change channels on the EFJs and you're good to go. I don't really care about a whole lot other than that. Have the CUL tell me what designator to be on so I can go focus on what the GBD told me to do.

Frankly, my training program in the past assumed that members would catch on pretty quick.  Varies greatly both with cadets & seniors.     Things that come up:   Don't know how to change channels/zones in EF Johnson equipment. Forget to plug antenna back into radio (after using antenna for DF gear) and calling aircraft flying right above, that reports they are very weak and marginally readable    On Wrong channel & clueless what to do (briefed at Mission base & in standard response plan comm annex).  Trying to talk to aircraft flying right above them via a repeater rather than a simplex air/ground channel.  Radio battery not charged prior to dispatch/no backup battery --- complete loss of comms.   Trying to use a portable radio inside a vehicle moving in a marginal comm area with the repeater (too far away) (rather than existing the vehicle and using the portable).    Unable to remember actual callsign for radio, so mission base to revert to ground team #1, #2, etc.    Inability to understand what is said to them over the radio.   Inability to reason when incorrect information is given over radio or they copy it down wrong and don't asked for a repeat (say again, all after... all before, etc)....   I could go on and on.    The key issue on this is NEVER ASSUME that anyone knows how to operate ANY radio or the proper terminology usage unless you've actually talked with them and they've demonstrated their knowledge.  I now make it a point to review the use of all the radios that are going to be used just before they are used with appropriate members and will have them demonstrate their knowledge, to try to prevent what I've listed above.

Again it's about "bling" and not enough about learning enough to be efficient & effective.
RM     

[SarDragon]

Trying to talk to aircraft flying right above them via a repeater rather than a simplex air/ground channel.

That depends entirely on the aircraft. There are a number of CAP out there that have the CAP radio antenna installed on top of the plane. Trying to talk to a GT directly underneath is hard when that 10 watts has to go through the plane first. You either use a repeater, or one end of the conversation or the other needs to move off to the side.

[EMT-83]

I'm aware of members who have taught BCUT without being authorized as instructors by the Wing DC, as required by regulation. The standard rule of holding the qualification for one year and SET doesn't apply here.

If you keep taking the training but it never shows up in your records, make sure you have an authorized instructor.

[kd8gua]

I've taken BCUT training twice. Once was done within my squadron by an authorized instructor who is also an IC, and runs the radios at mission bases when needed. He taught the class to myself and our cadets. They were all signed in on all of the appropriate forms. I then noticed my BCUT hadn't shown up in eServices. So, my Squadron CC wound up teaching another BCUT course for new seniors within our group. Roughly 15-20 seniors showed up for this training event. I told my Sq CC that I already went through the exact same material that the IC taught the cadets. We looked into this, and sure enough, I have taken BCUT twice, but in OHWG, as I'm sure in other wings, the records are sent to the Wing DC, who then enters the information. Well, I received an email via my Sq CC from the Wing DC to all Squadron CC's. It reiterated that OHWG no longer prints ROA cards for members since the A/BCUT qualifications show up on the 101 card. We were also reassured that now that everything is being entered via eServices, it would take a little bit of time to have everyone's qualifications updated. Well, it's over a year since my first BCUT course, and neither myself nor any of the other cadets and seniors who were in either of my BCUT courses have BCUT as a qualification on their 101.

It's rather troublesome to be the Unit Communications Officer when I can't even use a CAP radio. I can run circles around an EFJ handheld radio, I use one on my UHF Amateur Radio band. So it's rather frustrating that I can't really do anything. That and my inevitable long list of having other things planned weeks/months in advanced on weekends, and then having a few days/week notice of a Comm. meeting, ES training, practice mission, etc. where I could at least sit at the mission base and listen to a radio operator do their thing. Yikes... heh.

[RADIOMAN015]

I've taken BCUT training twice. Once was done within my squadron by an authorized instructor who is also an IC, and runs the radios at mission bases when needed. He taught the class to myself and our cadets. They were all signed in on all of the appropriate forms. I then noticed my BCUT hadn't shown up in eServices. So, my Squadron CC wound up teaching another BCUT course for new seniors within our group. Roughly 15-20 seniors showed up for this training event. I told my Sq CC that I already went through the exact same material that the IC taught the cadets. We looked into this, and sure enough, I have taken BCUT twice, but in OHWG, as I'm sure in other wings, the records are sent to the Wing DC, who then enters the information. Well, I received an email via my Sq CC from the Wing DC to all Squadron CC's. It reiterated that OHWG no longer prints ROA cards for members since the A/BCUT qualifications show up on the 101 card. We were also reassured that now that everything is being entered via eServices, it would take a little bit of time to have everyone's qualifications updated. Well, it's over a year since my first BCUT course, and neither myself nor any of the other cadets and seniors who were in either of my BCUT courses have BCUT as a qualification on their 101.

It's rather troublesome to be the Unit Communications Officer when I can't even use a CAP radio. I can run circles around an EFJ handheld radio, I use one on my UHF Amateur Radio band. So it's rather frustrating that I can't really do anything. That and my inevitable long list of having other things planned weeks/months in advanced on weekends, and then having a few days/week notice of a Comm. meeting, ES training, practice mission, etc. where I could at least sit at the mission base and listen to a radio operator do their thing. Yikes... heh.

Basically enter your qualification via the single entry qualification mode in E Services.  When that is done send an email to your Wing DC.   This appears just to be an administrative backlog, you know how to operate a radio and he/she should be clearing this up.  In our wing I've been reviewing our squadron personnel and when I find one not updated (and I have a comfort level/know they've been operating the radios) and I just enter and approve (as comm officer you can do this) and than just send the Wing DC an email with their CAP ID# and name.  He's able to clear it up right away.
RM   

[HGjunkie]

My thread, my necro.

I took ACUT a couple weekends ago and am now officially certified as a CAP communicator. I'm registered in the wing database and my eServices record is pending update.

Plus I have a shiny new radio to go with it, and I'm working on getting a callsign. 

[SarDragon]

[buzz kill]

Your ACUT makes you a Radio Operator, not a Communicator.

In order to be the latter, you need to complete the requirements of CAPR 100-1 and CAPP 214.

[/buzz kill]

[HGjunkie]

[buzz kill]

Your ACUT makes you a Radio Operator, not a Communicator.

In order to be the latter, you need to complete the requirements of CAPR 100-1 and CAPP 214.

[/buzz kill]

Well, in that case my certificate lied to me, it says CIVIL AIR PATROL COMMUNICATOR.

Ah well. I can actually use a radio now!

[SarDragon]

Certificate? Where can I get one? 

[HGjunkie]

Certificate? Where can I get one? 

FLWG. 

[SarDragon]

Then they need to review their terminology.