Uniforms on Memorial Day services

[RiverAux]

The NEC says uniforms can be worn to this event. 

39-1 says uniforms can only be worn for CAP activities.

Therefore this must either be a CAP activity or the authorization to wear uniforms is invalid because it attempts to authorize something that is prohibited by an existing regulation without going through an ICL or modifying the regulation as a whole. 

There are no other options. 

I believe that authorization to wear uniforms to this event was most certainly given by proper authority so therefore it must be a CAP activity because I tend to believe our leaders don't authorize things that would violate our regulations.  So, if it is a CAP activity, then all CAP rules apply. 

[Eclipse]

And oh, yeah, CAPM 39-1 doesn't say that anytime you fly commercial or take a train or a taxi, that you wear a uniform. That's just plain silly. I'm not flying across country for WORK or for a VACATION (and not for CAP at all) in a CAP uniform just because I misread the intent of the uniform manual. Just like if I'm on vacation in Washington, D.C., I'm not wearing service dress in the middle of August. If I'm there for CAP, that's another thing, and I'll be ducking in for air conditioning like a Floridian every chance I get.

It says you may, not that you must.

[Eclipse]

In this case the NEC has authorized uniform wear so logically this must be a CAP activity. 

But for a uniform to be worn it must be for one of the activities specified in 39-1 for which uniform wear has been authorized. 

Error 51 - logic failure...

[Major Carrales]

River, I agree with Eclipse, there is a logical fallacy in your argument.

Socrates has a beard,
Socrates is a man,
A goat has a beard,
A goat is a man.

Regulations, as all laws and rules, mandate normal activities and regulate the implementation of the program.  They exist to regulate normal activities.  Here, the NEC, an appropriate authority, made a judgement on the matter.  This is, in similar context, a kin to the judicial process of government.

A law is made, an alleged infraction occurs, the matter is taken before the judiciary...judgements are made and sometime exceptions.

Bottom line,
A uniform does not make an acticity official.

[ol'fido]

Wow, we're really splitting hairs on this one. So I am going to fall back on the reasonable man doctrine here and that's what most commanders that have a clue should do IMHO.

If I wear my uniform to a photographers to have a non-official photo taken of me in my uniform, it's not a CAP activity but it's entirely appropriate.

If I wear my uniform to a KKK/Neo-Nazi rally and have my picture taken there that's not appropriate.

If I wear my uniform at the tailor's to have it altered it's not a CAP activity but it's enitrely appropriate.

If I wear my service coat with all its insignia and ribbons as a jacket in cool weather with my jeans and t-shirt it's not a CAP activity and it's not appropriate.

If I wear my CAP uniform to a my aunt's birthday dinner before leaving directly for a unit meeting that's not a CAP activity but entirely appropriate.

If I wear my CAP uniform to the bar at the local VFW and sit around drinking and telling war stories about CAP, that's not appropriate.

We can all come up with anecdotal stories of people who have worn their CAP uniforms in places that were not appropriate,  but the majority of CAP members put it in the proper perspective and wear their uniform in respectful manner and in appropriate situations. The rest is as Eclipse  like to say "administrivia".

Let's turn this around. If the wear of uniforms makes it a CAP activity and wear of the uniform is absolutely required, then every encampment ever held is in violation of CAP regs. People have to change clothes, take showers, and sleep. So unless you are sleeping in your dress blues or BDU's you are technically in violation of 39-1.

This thread has inspired me to wear my uniform to Memorial Day services at my church.

[RiverAux]

Folks, there is a major difference between being out of uniform while you change during encampment or getting an official photo taken and putting on the uniform, driving to an event, staying there for an hour or two (or more depending on your church) and driving back.

And you say that I'm splitting hairs.   

And by the way, it isn't appropriate to wear your uniform to your aunt's birthday any more than it is for me to wear the uniform to work because I am going directly from work to a CAP meeting. 

This thread has inspired me to wear my uniform to Memorial Day services at my church.

Super.  Like I said, I have no problem at all with this being authorized just so everyone recognizes that this makes it a CAP activity with all the rules that apply. 

And like I said, with a few minor modifications of the regulations there would not be any question at all about what responsibility CAP is taking or is not taking for members that are out in CAP uniform and what other CAP regulations do or do not apply in such situations. 

The other similar situation that has come up on this board every now and again is cadets wearing their uniforms to school after being authorized to do so by their unit commander as part of a recruiting program.  I'm all for that being possible, but like with this don't see how it can be done in accordance with all our other regulations since there is no way to wear a CAP uniform without it being for a generic "CAP activity" or one of the few other situations explicitly detailed in the regulations. 

[Eclipse]

One of the problems with your argument(s) is that you are quoting a document that asserts to be exclusive in its authority in regards to the
wear of CAP uniforms, when in fact that is no longer the case, assuming it ever was.

[Grumpy]

Yee Gads!  What ever happened to common sense?

[Eclipse]

Yee Gads!  What ever happened to common sense?

Boredom and bandwidth killed that a long time ago.

[Major Carrales]

River, what point are you trying to make with all this?  Disregard the order, its against the regulation?  Church is a CAP activity? 

If there is no point, why bring it up?

If the point is the regulations need revising, we get it.  We also cannot do anything about it.

[a2capt]

"why bring it up?"

Post count. ;-)

[lordmonar]

But this does appear to fly in the face of regs regarding cadet wear of the uniform without a senior present....

What reg is that?

[titanII]

What I'm starting to wonder is who's actually gonna wear their uniform to religious services Memorial Weekend. Are you guys going to?

[ol'fido]

I am.

[lordmonar]

The FSM does not have regular worship services....so no.

[RADIOMAN015]

The NEC says uniforms can be worn to this event. 

39-1 says uniforms can only be worn for CAP activities.

Therefore this must either be a CAP activity or the authorization to wear uniforms is invalid because it attempts to authorize something that is prohibited by an existing regulation without going through an ICL or modifying the regulation as a whole. 

There are no other options. 

I believe that authorization to wear uniforms to this event was most certainly given by proper authority so therefore it must be a CAP activity because I tend to believe our leaders don't authorize things that would violate our regulations.  So, if it is a CAP activity, then all CAP rules apply.

Well one would definitely be representing Civil Air Patrol, perhaps in some churches as "an Army of one" so to speak.  I was thinking of wear my golf shirt to the Saturday evening Mass (my spouse tells me that the white aviator shirt won't meet any wear standards due to ink marks and other dirt that doesn't seem to want to come out of the uniform).  (That's why I really wish we had a darker shirt we could wear as an alternative uniform).  Maybe even the Blue BDU's would look better ).  :angel:

HOWEVER, I guess I would be violating the rules by not wearing the exact uniforms they've stated so I'll just wear my typical tee shirt, pants, and combat boots :angel:
RM 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

And oh, yeah, CAPM 39-1 doesn't say that anytime you fly commercial or take a train or a taxi, that you wear a uniform. That's just plain silly. I'm not flying across country for WORK or for a VACATION (and not for CAP at all) in a CAP uniform just because I misread the intent of the uniform manual. Just like if I'm on vacation in Washington, D.C., I'm not wearing service dress in the middle of August. If I'm there for CAP, that's another thing, and I'll be ducking in for air conditioning like a Floridian every chance I get.

It says you may, not that you must.

But if you're not inbound to or outbound from a CAP activity, what would make it appropriate to wear a CAP uniform on a large metal tube hurtling through the air at subsonic speeds, after going through the TSA molestation process?

[Major Lord]

The FSM does not have regular worship services....so no.

I suggest you contact your FSM Chaplain to find a meeting on Memorial Day. If none are available, there may be a Pastafarian observance. Careful not to stain your shirt. If there enough members in the South, I suggest a CAP-Uniformed "Flash Mob" at the church that does the funeral protests....I am sure they would love the company. Watch out for their rattlesnakes.

Major Lord

[JoeTomasone]

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. I don't think I missed anything about that in the regs. I am human, just like everyone else on here and make mistakes. But I would like to see a cite of it, if that's the case.

What exactly in a "cite" are you looking for? Something that says "Senior members are not required to be present when a cadet wears a uniform"?

You have a message from National Headquarters encouraging the action. That's approval. From the top. Don't really need to go any higher.

Except for the fact that it violates regulations.   But then, it seems like National doesn't always feel the need to follow them.

[JoeTomasone]

And oh, yeah, CAPM 39-1 doesn't say that anytime you fly commercial or take a train or a taxi, that you wear a uniform. That's just plain silly. I'm not flying across country for WORK or for a VACATION (and not for CAP at all) in a CAP uniform just because I misread the intent of the uniform manual. Just like if I'm on vacation in Washington, D.C., I'm not wearing service dress in the middle of August. If I'm there for CAP, that's another thing, and I'll be ducking in for air conditioning like a Floridian every chance I get.

It says you may, not that you must.

But 39-1 says that compliance with 39-1 is mandatory.

Oh, and ICLs cannot be issued for uniform changes as per CAPR 5-4.