Uniforms on Memorial Day services

[PWK-GT]

Now on e-services News:

MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, Ala.- Civil Air Patrol members are encouraged to wear their service dress or corporate uniform while attending worship services the Saturday or Sunday before Memorial Day.

CAP's National Executive Council has requested that the organization's region commanders encourage members to wear their uniform on their day of worship both before Memorial Day and on the first weekend in December. CAP will mark its 70th anniversary Dec. 1, and the organization plays a vital role in the Wreaths Across America campaign to honor American veterans throughout the nation and the world the second Saturday of every December.

"Wearing our uniforms in surroundings and circumstances that incorporate reverence and respect reflect some of Civil Air Patrol's deepest core values," said Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP national commander. "We hope our members choose to represent our organization at this important time in our history – when the nation pays tribute to veterans who have served, fought and died to preserve America's freedoms."

Memorial Day this year is observed Monday, May 30.

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If we're talking Seniors only here, I have to say that this actually makes some sense to me....a refreshing change :-)

Yes, I know RM....we are the CIVIL Air Patrol. But it's not so much about us, but rather a nod to those non-civilians who gave so much.

But this does appear to fly in the face of regs regarding cadet wear of the uniform without a senior present....

[davidsinn]

It's says members. That includes cadets. It's not without precedence though. On the first Saturday or Sunday of December, depending on your religion, you are encouraged to wear your uniform to church for CAP Sunday.

[Eclipse]

I'm not aware of any requirement that seniors "be around" when cadets are wearing the uniform, only that the wear be approved for
non-CAP activities.

[Cool Mace]

I'm not aware of any requirement that seniors "be around" when cadets are wearing the uniform, only that the wear be approved for
non-CAP activities.

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. I don't think I missed anything about that in the regs. I am human, just like everyone else on here and make mistakes. But I would like to see a cite of it, if that's the case.

[Hawk200]

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. I don't think I missed anything about that in the regs. I am human, just like everyone else on here and make mistakes. But I would like to see a cite of it, if that's the case.

What exactly in a "cite" are you looking for? Something that says "Senior members are not required to be present when a cadet wears a uniform"?

You have a message from National Headquarters encouraging the action. That's approval. From the top. Don't really need to go any higher.

[davidsinn]

I'm not aware of any requirement that seniors "be around" when cadets are wearing the uniform, only that the wear be approved for
non-CAP activities.

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. I don't think I missed anything about that in the regs. I am human, just like everyone else on here and make mistakes. But I would like to see a cite of it, if that's the case.

The logic I have seen: cadets must be supervised by a SM when at an official activity. Wearing uniforms makes it an official activity. Not saying I agree with it but that's what I've read.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm not aware of any requirement that seniors "be around" when cadets are wearing the uniform, only that the wear be approved for
non-CAP activities.

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. I don't think I missed anything about that in the regs. I am human, just like everyone else on here and make mistakes. But I would like to see a cite of it, if that's the case.

The logic I have seen: cadets must be supervised by a SM when at an official activity. Wearing uniforms makes it an official activity. Not saying I agree with it but that's what I've read.

So if I wear my uniform to church that makes the church service an official CAP activity?

[RiverAux]

Well, according to the regulations you can only wear your uniform for CAP activities of one kind or another.  This appears to now have been authorized so that issue is settled.  So, if you are in your uniform for this event you are therefore at a CAP activity and therefore any other regulations regarding CAP activities should apply.  For example, if the church collapses on you then CAP insurance would apply and in this case CAP cadets should be under proper supervision by CAP senior members.  Many wings require a safety briefing at any CAP activity....

Now, all of the above is based on a strict interpretation of the regulations.  What NHQ should do for situations like this is to make some clear exemptions in the regs.  For example, allow cadets to wear their uniforms for such events so long as they are under the direct supervision of their parent or guardian.  They should also make it clear any wear of the uniform in such situations is completely voluntary and done at the members own risk and does not constitute a CAP activity (to get out of the legal stuff). 

Should this fall under the rule of common sense?  Probably, but that isn't the CAP we're living in. 

[Ned]

The logic I have seen: cadets must be supervised by a SM when at an official activity. Wearing uniforms makes it an official activity. Not saying I agree with it but that's what I've read.

I'm pretty sure that the tailoring session at the uniform shop is not an official CAP activity; nor is hanging around at your house in uniform just prior to going to a meeting.

While I agree that uniforms are worn at (almost all) CAP activities, I'm not sure the reverse is always logically true.  IOW, it takes more than a uniform to create an official CAP activity.

[Eclipse]

The logic I have seen: cadets must be supervised by a SM when at an official activity. Wearing uniforms makes it an official activity. Not saying I agree with it but that's what I've read.

Wearing a uniform does not make something an official CAP activity. 

There's nothing wrong with cadets wearing the uniform to recruit at school, or other similar times when it is appropriate.  The wear has to be approved, but that doesn't turn the situation into a "CAP activity".

[davidsinn]

The logic I have seen: cadets must be supervised by a SM when at an official activity. Wearing uniforms makes it an official activity. Not saying I agree with it but that's what I've read.

Wearing a uniform does not make something an official CAP activity. 

There's nothing wrong with cadets wearing the uniform to recruit at school, or other similar times when it is appropriate.  The wear has to be approved, but that doesn't turn the situation into a "CAP activity".

Col. Lee, Eclipse

You're preaching to the choir here. I'm just repeating the arguments I've seen thrown out on here.

[RiverAux]

Wearing a uniform does not make something an official CAP activity. 

Of course not.  What allows you to wear the uniform is that you're attending a CAP activity.  No CAP activity = no uniform.

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

[Eclipse]

Of course not.  What allows you to wear the uniform is that you're attending a CAP activity.  No CAP activity = no uniform.

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

Incorrect, there are any number of circumstances where a uniform may be worn when it is not specifically a CAP activity per-se.

In all cases the member should be representing CAP, but that doesn't make it a CAP activity.

[Hawk200]

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

Where exactly does it say that it's defined as a CAP activity in the first post? I'm not seeing it.

[Pylon]

CAPM 39-1 explicitly authorizes members to wear the CAP uniform anytime they travel by commercial means (i.e.: airlines).  Does every instance of a CAP member boarding a commercial flight or train become a CAP activity now, too?

There is nothing in any regulation that says "Wearing the CAP Uniform makes whatever you're doing a CAP activity."     As Ned aptly put it, CAP activities pretty much require wear of a CAP uniform, but that doesn't mean there aren't also other instances or times where uniform wear can be permitted.

[RiverAux]

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

Where exactly does it say that it's defined as a CAP activity in the first post? I'm not seeing it.

By authorizing CAP members to wear their uniforms that means that the NEC is saying it is a CAP activity at which uniforms can be worn. 

CAPM 39-1 explicitly authorizes members to wear the CAP uniform anytime they travel by commercial means (i.e.: airlines).  Does every instance of a CAP member boarding a commercial flight or train become a CAP activity now, too?

Don't know about that.

But, take a look at Table 1.1 which lays out when you may and may not wear the uniform.  In order to wear the uniform for this event by definition it must be an occasion covered by this table.  There is only one situation that could possibly apply to wearing the uniform to church: 

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

.  By authorizing uniforms to be worn for this event the NEC has to be saying that this is part of normal CAP duties (much as if the squadron commander authorizes the PAO to go give a CAP talk to the Kiwanis in uniform). 

So, if you're engaging in normal CAP duties, then all other CAP regulations should apply. 

[davidsinn]

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

Where exactly does it say that it's defined as a CAP activity in the first post? I'm not seeing it.

By authorizing CAP members to wear their uniforms that means that the NEC is saying it is a CAP activity at which uniforms can be worn. 

CAPM 39-1 explicitly authorizes members to wear the CAP uniform anytime they travel by commercial means (i.e.: airlines).  Does every instance of a CAP member boarding a commercial flight or train become a CAP activity now, too?

Don't know about that.

But, take a look at Table 1.1 which lays out when you may and may not wear the uniform.  In order to wear the uniform for this event by definition it must be an occasion covered by this table.  There is only one situation that could possibly apply to wearing the uniform to church: 

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

.  By authorizing uniforms to be worn for this event the NEC has to be saying that this is part of normal CAP duties (much as if the squadron commander authorizes the PAO to go give a CAP talk to the Kiwanis in uniform). 

So, if you're engaging in normal CAP duties, then all other CAP regulations should apply.

Since when does the uniform manual dictate what is and is not a CAP activity?

[RiverAux]

It certainly doesn't.  Anything someone in command wants could potentially be designated as a CAP activity.  The Wing Commander could authorize a unit to go to the county fair in uniform and go on the "airplane" rides as an AE activity. 

In this case the NEC has authorized uniform wear so logically this must be a CAP activity. 

But for a uniform to be worn it must be for one of the activities specified in 39-1 for which uniform wear has been authorized. 


 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

OK, time to weigh in with you barracks lawyers (and one real one, who I think I will generally be in agreement with)...

You are encouraged to wear your uniform to represent the organization to the outside world, sanctioned by the Powers That Be, as a way to honor the memory of those fallen in the line of military/CAP duty.

Civil Air Patrol Sunday has been going on for decades, and no one reads between the lines like you guys are on this. Church services are not CAP activities. Nor would be a CAP presentation to an outside organization -- it's that organization's activity -- but we as CAP representatives are there for a purpose, and we're in uniform as representatives of the organization.

Whenever you're in uniform, whether it's a CAP activity or someone else's and you're representing CAP, the same uniform and conduct standards apply. The presence of the uniform compels conformity.

And oh, yeah, CAPM 39-1 doesn't say that anytime you fly commercial or take a train or a taxi, that you wear a uniform. That's just plain silly. I'm not flying across country for WORK or for a VACATION (and not for CAP at all) in a CAP uniform just because I misread the intent of the uniform manual. Just like if I'm on vacation in Washington, D.C., I'm not wearing service dress in the middle of August. If I'm there for CAP, that's another thing, and I'll be ducking in for air conditioning like a Floridian every chance I get.

[Hawk200]

But that isn't the argument here.  This has been authorized as a CAP activity by NHQ.

Where exactly does it say that it's defined as a CAP activity in the first post? I'm not seeing it.

By authorizing CAP members to wear their uniforms that means that the NEC is saying it is a CAP activity at which uniforms can be worn.

I don't think that's what they're saying at all. You're welcome to believe that.

But, if you actually want me to even consider such a thing you will show me, in writing from a reliable source, that NEC is specifically saying "it is a CAP activity at which uniforms can be worn." I doubt you can, and this reads as something you want to believe rather than actually is.

Defining publication by applying any logic other than what is in black and white is not how it's done.