Screening out the poseurs and fakers.

[GrantHenninger]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

[NCRblues]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

I have found in my experience, that military items are a major distraction to some cadets and SM's who have not served. My decorations are not amazing at all, but some CAP members MUST know every detail of my service. They have become more of a distraction than they are worth (at least IMHO).

I will still wear them to nice functions, but to simple things i wont put them on the uniform anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of the little bit i do have, but I don't need to show them off every second in a CAP uniform.

[mclarke]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

My understanding is no matter what, you should have a DD214. As for retirement orders, I have never heard of those, however, that does not mean they do not exist. Fact is, if he is OUT of the service, he would and should have a DD214.

To play devils advocate, lets say there is no DD214, then he should have been able to provide retirement orders.

Anyways, I am doing the job of recruiting officer in addition to PAO. My policy is to check with the Service they are representing regardless of what they provide me with to confirm. Too many folks going in the service with fake DD214 just to pick up rank and pay now a days.

[a2capt]

He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron.

.. a call to some folks in Group 3 might be in order, it's not like you're out of bounds of doing your due diligence in following up..

[NIN]

Try to verify someones membership in La Legion Etrangere: they all used fake names!

I believe the term is "pseudonym" in this case.  They get mighty Gallic when you say "fake."

[coudano]

NIN if this results in *another* administrative process that i have to mess with, i'm driving to wherever you are and kicking you through the uprights.

[PHall]

Here is something I've run into: An older gentleman came to my squadron looking to join, claiming to have been a retired USAF SMSgt. He came in with a professional photo of him in his uniform, a copy of his resume and a cover letter saying he wanted to join CAP. He also talked about being a reserve assistance NCO out of the closest Air Force base to my squadron. He had clearly worked with the CAP squadron at that base, because he knew all the people there and some of their policies that he suggested for my squadron.

When I asked for a copy of his DD-214, since he was asking for promotion to 1st Lt based on prior military service, he said that he didn't have one because he was retired and had retirement orders. He did produce these orders and they looked official. I have no reason to believe he was lying and he ended up joining but needing to leave fairly quickly after to take care of some type of unnamed family emergency out of state (my sense was that one of his parents was in ill health.)

My question is: when people retire from the military after 20+ years of service, do they still get a DD-214 or is there such a thing as retirement orders?

Ask to see his Military ID Card Grant. If he's really retired military he will have it.
And it won't be a CAC card, it will be a DD Form 2AF (Ret). Red if he's a "gray area" Reservist who's not 60 yet or Gray if he's drawing his retirement pay.

[NIN]

As someone who spent 7 years in Army SF I was almost disappointed to discover that at 38% of all fakes reported, Seals were faked more than Green berets by a factor of 2 to 1.

Man, how disrespectful of SF. 

Back when I was a unit commander in Michigan, I had a guy come to my squadron wanting to join and just about none of his story stacked up.  He'd supposedly been in CAP in AZ, and he offered up the name of a CAP officer there who could confirm everything. I seem to remember he also claimed to have been AF, but could never produce his DD-214 for one reason or another.

We basically said "We need proof in the form of written documentation, fingerprint cards, etc.."

And he went away.

[NIN]

NIN if this results in *another* administrative process that i have to mess with, i'm driving to wherever you are and kicking you through the uprights.

Cool your jets, Dano, cadets don't need to produce 214s.

My _entire_ point here was to illustrate that the process of confirming a member's service in the military is entirely lacking under the regs in CAP. Yes, it says that a prospective member must have been discharged under honorable conditions. Who confirms that?  There is no requirement for the 214.

There are those of us who know enough to ask for it. But what about the people who don't?

CAPR 39-2 sure does talk about requirements for membership, but it also says that units will conduct a membership board, and we see how many units *really* do that, right?

[RVT]

If you can't produce a 214 or orders for your badges/awards, and you claim to have served in the last 10 years then chances are you didn't serve. There is no one who would put the time and effort into the military that wouldn't keep the records, for one thing it is a great item to remember what you have done, and two, YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING AFTER THE ARMY WITHOUT YOUR DD-214!

I got out 9 years and 8 months ago.  My last DD214 was from 1983.  I served 17 years after that working for the Army as a DA Civilian and concurrently as a reservist, but I never went on active duty for more than 30 days so no DD214 was ever cut on me again.  All my 214 shows is parachutist wings and the same army training ribbon everybody gets.

[RVT]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

In the past year I have worn AF blues *one* time.  I'm usually in aviator whites and what military stuff I do or do not have doesn't even come up.

The military stuff is easy.  Its tracking down my unnumbered Mitchell award from 1975 New Jersey thats proving to be the bother.

[SarDragon]

I have honestly given up on wearing my military items on a CAP uniform.

In the past year I have worn AF blues *one* time.  I'm usually in aviator whites and what military stuff I do or do not have doesn't even come up.

The military stuff is easy.  Its tracking down my unnumbered Mitchell award from 1975 New Jersey thats proving to be the bother.

Well, you might have been in NJWG, but it came from NHQ. As for any available records, good luck. I am fortunate enough to have my entire cadet record in my possession. I also have my Mitchell certificate, although it's a little worse for the wear of 15+ moves since I got it.

[SarDragon]

Five people in my immediate family were in the Navy, and every single one of them got a DD-214 (or equivalent ) upon discharge or retirement. This goes all the way back to the late '30s. I personally have four from my time on AD.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The thing about requiring that members that have served and discharged honorably is that there is no need for a DD214 being that CAP performs an FBI background check on all prospective members and that will show their discharge status if they have served. Nothing else in a member's service record really maters to CAP. That is until their integrity comes into check with massive stories of valor and wearing badges or awards that weren't earned, then it is up to the home unit and/or group/wing to ask for the member to supply them with a copy of their 214. But I do agree that even though it is not required by CAP, individual units should have their prior service members to supply them with a copy of their DD214 to put into their file so that if they are wearing a badge such as a trident or a medal such as the Distinguished Flying Cross any one questioning it needs not throw any egg on any one's face and just ask the member's home unit's CC/PDO, and the answer isn't just I see him wearing it all the time, it is, yes, I have it on his discharge form here.

[DBlair]

Regarding the DD-214/NGB-F22, if the potential CAP member doesn't have this, can't they request another copy to be sent to them-- I remember there being an option online to do this.

[bosshawk]

A couple of responses from someone who has been there and done that(at least some of it).  One, Ned is correct that reservists and guardsmen may not have a 214 until they retire.  I spent 10 yrs on AD and 20 years in the reserves and my 214 only covers the first 10 yrs.  I have a number of decorations from my reserve status and they are not on my 214, but I have orders to cover them. 

Yes, there are such things as retirement orders: you can't collect retirement unless you have them.  Mine are from Dept of the Army and are dated sometime in June 87.  In fact, in order to get my rank(?) in CAP, I used my retirement orders, because they were easier to get to than my 214 and, in fact, my 214 only carried me as a Major.

Presenting a 214 will not solve the problem that most of you guys are having.  Only if ones service actually ended on the date of the 214 will the entire service period be covered.  There are thousands of us who served after the closing of our 214.

[Pylon]

Regarding the DD-214/NGB-F22, if the potential CAP member doesn't have this, can't they request another copy to be sent to them-- I remember there being an option online to do this.

The veteran themselves can request copies of their records online via eVetRecs.  Anybody can request anyone's (redacted) DD-214 through FOIA and a paper form to the National Archives (may take several months).

[bosshawk]

I forgot to comment on the records deal: Army vets can contact the Army REserve Personnel Center in St Louis, Mo to get copies of records, if they aren't among the thousands that went up in flames in the big fire  a bunch of years ago.  I assume that other services have similar organizations.

Warning: the copies come VERY slowly.

[COL Land]

In the past ten years, I have encountered:

  *  Special Forces Colonel, as well as a CAP officer, in California, who attended a USAC (then ACA) orientation in uniform.  He was a fake, with no military service, or very limited...I don't recall.

  *  Military Police Colonel in Florida, who attended several USAC (then ACA) drills in uniform.  He was actually a former SSG.  "Eh...E6, O6...what's the difference?!?"   He was running a school-based Cadet program and simply decided one day that he was a colonel.  Fake.  Incidentally, he submitted a DD-214...oddly, there were two difference typefaces on the form and evidence of the use of a LOT of white-out.  Ugh...a liar AND stupid...just what my Cadets need.

  *  Navy Lieutenant (Jr. Grade) (Limited Duty Officer) working with the Sea Cadets, who had business cards indicating that he was a Public Affairs Officer at Great Lakes.  Stated he was a former PO1, USN, serving in submarines.  I noticed his ribbons were WAY out of order and started asking questions.   He was actually a former Quartermaster Seaman Apprentice who was given an OTH discharge years prior.  Amazingly, he had a telephone line at Great Lakes and regularly checked out vans to be used to transport Cadets.  .  Fake.

  *  Navy Master Chief Hospital Corpsman, wearing the Navy Cross and several other combat-related awards, while stating he had served with the Fleet Marine Force.  He was indeed a Master Chief, but was just finishing "A" school during the final days of Vietnam.  The rank was real, most of the awards were fake.  We fired him.  He was a DA civilian...they did nothing.   

  *  Marine Corps Reserve Sergeant with Navy Achievement Medal, Combat Action Ribbon and several other awards.  In actuality, he had never deployed.  Awards were fake.  The Marine Corps Reserve separated him.  Sad, as he was well on his way to the Enlisted Commissioning Program.

  *  State Guard Colonel, claimed to be a former Army Major.   When required to submit a full application package, to include DD-214 and SF-180, Request Pertaining to Military Records, he back-peddled VERY quickly, withdrawing his application.  Probably another fake.  Don't know for sure, as we only investigate applicants.

  *  Sea Cadet Lt. Commander, wearing the "Budweiser" of the SEALs.   Well, he did serve "with" the SEALs as a "Boat Guy," but was NOT an actual SEAL.   The Combat Action Ribbon was fake too.   He got booted from the Sea Cadets after nearly 30 years of total service as a Cadet and NSCC officer. 

  *  Military School TAC officer (school rank of MAJ), a retired PO1, USN, claimed to have been a Journalist in the Navy.  "Great!  So, was I."  Well, the location he gave for Journalist "A" School was simply wrong.   The most basic questions found on a E4 test were well beyond him...he had no clue.   Unfortunately, he snowed a military school for several years.   He never submitted his application to USAC after the initial interview.

  *  Civil Air Patrol 1st Lt, met in Pennsylvania several years ago.  Claimed to be an 0311 Sergeant of Marines.   Ten minutes and a dozen questions later, it's crystal clear that he's not.   Intel passed to CAP.  I don't think any action was ever taken, as I've seen his name since as a Captain.   

The list could go on and on.   Sadly, I've had more fake "Colonels" than anything else, followed by claims of having been a SEAL.   I've busted several for wearing jump wings, Combat Infantry Badge, Navy Enlisted Surface Warfare device and much more. 

USAC requires the DD-214, DD-215 and/or the NGB-22.  More importantly, since these forms can be fabricated, we require a SF-180 to be signed, with the documents sent DIRECTLY to HQ, USAC.  This ensures that we are getting the documents directly from DoD, rather than from the applicant.  Very often this form isn't sent with the application, as required.  Amazingly, several applicants withdraw their package when we sent them a Notification of Deficiency letter stating that their application is held in abeyance until we have proof of service from DoD.   I'm sure we have filtered several fakers through our admittedly cumbersome application process.

We've had some folks who have applied and learned later in life that the awards they had worn for years were never properly documented.   We do two things (a) have them submit a request for a correction to their military records, and (b) have them sign a Memorandum for the Record stating that they earned XX award(s) and the circumstances behind the presentation (in the field, at sea, in combat, etc.).  This boils down to honor...they state in writing, on their honor, that they earned a certain award (usually minor awards, like marksmanship quals or an overseas service ribbon), we will take them at their word, as administrative oversight has happened to many of us.  However, if there is later a situation which proves that they had lied about their awards, then we are merciless about putting them out of the door. 

Respectfully,

[AirDX]

I think the simplest solution to this issue is to require that any former members of the military present a copy of their dd214 upon application for CAP membership.  Whether or not they're going to use their prior service to obtain rank or for wearing of military awards (neither of which they are actually required to do), this would seem to be a legitimate request.

For what purpose?  Yes, I've read this whole thread.... and if someone wants to use their service to gain advanced rank, or wear military badges or awards, that's fine, make them prove it somehow.  But otherwise, why automatically ask for it?  It's one more item of personal information sitting in some unguarded CAP file cabinet.

Why not ask for a high school diploma, or your SAT scores, or a note from your mother?

I have not (and will not) submitted a DD-214 because nothing on it is relevant to CAP.  I do not wear the AF style uniform, thus my couple of ribbons will never be seen.  I have no badges except the Expert Rifle badge, and I can't wear that anywhere in CAP.  I did not claim advanced rank or training equivalents. 

The FBI check is good enough for what CAP needs as far as identity and background checks.  Unless someone is claiming some status relevant to CAP, then I think the less intrusive we are the better.