Cell phones and missing airplane SAR

[RiverAux]

Did anyone notice that signals received from cell phones that weren't actually being used factored into the recent search for the Kim family and the climbers on Mount Hood?

I see this as another potential source of information to use during missing airplane searches.  If the cell phone was on, and it was the right sort of cell phone, when the plane crashed and the phone survived, it may still transmit a signal that the cell phone company could pick up and CAP could use that to narrow down the search area. 

I sure hope somebody from NHQ is reading this and can get out a quick information sheet on how CAP ICs could access this information during a search. 

[Eclipse]

I sure hope somebody from NHQ is reading this and can get out a quick information sheet on how CAP ICs could access this information during a search. 

And how would work, exactly?

[RiverAux]

What I meant was that someone at national needs to research exactly which companies have cell phones with this capability and who CAP would need to call if there was a search and we determined that someone on board had a cell phone from that company, so that we could have that company try to determine if they could locate the phone.  Find the phone, maybe find the plane.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 IIRC, information from Sprint was used in a missing-aircraft search several years ago. A helicopter went missing en route from Harrisburg PA to Bristol TN and was found near the top of a ridge in the George Washington National Forest.

This was the same search where declassified NTAP info from one of those 'national security assets' was made available.

[thefischNX01]

I did a mission back in May which hinged on a cell phone call.  I was not privy to all the information, but we were able to call the company and find which tower had been activated for the call, and which side of the tower had been activated too.  This narrowed down our search area to a few square miles.  The trees in the area were full and the canopy was impenetrable from the air, so we had to use ground teams, but were able to find him. 

[DNall]

"Maam does your husband have a cell phone? Can you give us the number & company it's with please? T/Y. AFRCC, hi it's me again, standby to copy... Can you call that comany & see if they have anything on this & aks if they can monitor till we close out. T/Y Sgt, let me know."

Why you guys gotta make things hard?

[RiverAux]

Will the cell phone company release this information to the AFRCC?  I imagine there are potential legal issues here, both from the AF side and the company side.  The company may require some sort of signed statement from the family to release the information to outside parties, etc.  Keep in mind that this isn't all that different than tapping a phone, even if for totally benign purposes.  So, it may be as simple as you say on the CAP side of the house, but are the procedures in place to make this happen as fast as possible on the AF side of the house?

[DNall]

AFRCC I believe ran all the searches cited in this thread, yeah I think they have it down. I don't know what legal implications there would be, but as AF is Posse Comitatus restricted & because no conversation can be heard at any point nor even an exact position... I can't see it as being that big a deal. If we need fam permission, I'm sure the controller will tell me that & I can turn around & ask the wife to sign a note for faxing/email. Why in the world would anyone do somethign for NOC or an IC that they wouldn't for AFRCC. Those guys at RCC are pretty bright & hard working. Use your resources & task them with things while you focus on your search effort. They have a lot more resources to bring to bear on problems than you do.

[RiverAux]

I suppose that part of what I'm getting at is that if this is a viable search tool, why hasn't CAP made some effort to let ICs know that it is available to them? 

[arajca]

It is very different from tapping a phone. You're not trying to find out what someone is talking about, just a location of the phone. Given that cell phones are required to include their location  when calling 911 now, using cell towers to determine the location of the phone in a SAR situation shouldn't be a problem.

[RiverAux]

I didn't say it was tapping the phone, just that it brings up some of the very same issues.  A cell phone company is just not going to release this information to random people who call them on the phone saying they're the AFRCC and want to know where a cell phone is at.  That company has to protect themselves and ensure that this is a legitimate request and that the can release the info without getting into any legal trouble of their own. 

[lordmonar]

What I meant was that someone at national needs to research exactly which companies have cell phones with this capability and who CAP would need to call if there was a search and we determined that someone on board had a cell phone from that company, so that we could have that company try to determine if they could locate the phone.  Find the phone, maybe find the plane.

National Security Agency

[bosshawk]

Corrrect me if I am wrong, but I believe that if a cell phone is turned on, it tries to make contact with a tower: I believe that shows on the face of your phone as a number of bars, denoting level of service.  I am sure that a company, whomever it is, would not deny telling a SAR agency which tower was the one contacted by the phone.

Don't go too far down the road to asking the National Security Agency for help: those folks are really paranoid about their operations and capabilities and would need to have an official contact from the Air Force before they would even talk to you.  That said, AFRCC would probably be sufficiently official. Turn around time with NSA might be a little long, unless they happened to be having a slow day or night.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I suppose that part of what I'm getting at is that if this is a viable search tool, why hasn't CAP made some effort to let ICs know that it is available to them? 

Any IC worth his salt should possess both flexibility of thought and an awareness of just what a big resource the AFRCC can be.

[Johnny Yuma]

AFRCC I believe ran all the searches cited in this thread, yeah I think they have it down. I don't know what legal implications there would be, but as AF is Posse Comitatus restricted & because no conversation can be heard at any point nor even an exact position... I can't see it as being that big a deal. If we need fam permission, I'm sure the controller will tell me that & I can turn around & ask the wife to sign a note for faxing/email. Why in the world would anyone do somethign for NOC or an IC that they wouldn't for AFRCC. Those guys at RCC are pretty bright & hard working. Use your resources & task them with things while you focus on your search effort. They have a lot more resources to bring to bear on problems than you do.

AFRCC has certain responsibilities given to them by law that trump PCA.

Besides, what AFRCC cannot do I''m certain your local gendarmes or State Police can once the IC's brought them into the loop...


Johnny Y.

[shorning]

National Security Agency

Intel Oversight...

[DNall]

Any IC worth his salt should possess both flexibility of thought and an awareness of just what a big resource the AFRCC can be.

Second. You don't call other federal agencies for help. You call AFRCC. They make the determination if that help is warranted, and they ask for it. Evan as a CAP SaR IC you are just a resource working the tactical aspect of a search being run by an AF controller at AFRCC. You just run your single poitn resource. If you happen to liaise w/ local authorities on scene that's fine, but AFRCC is in charge, not you.

[RiverAux]

If you happen to liaise w/ local authorities on scene that's fine, but AFRCC is in charge, not you

If you happen to liase with local authorities?  The IC or his rep should be doing this at all times during the mission.  Not sure what this has to do with the original point of the thread though. 

Guys, here is my point:  There is a technology out there that has the potential to dramatically aid CAP in certain missions.  As far as I can tell, CAP has not made any attempt to make its ICs aware of this technology, how to use it, what limitations there may be, etc.  Don't you think this is worth having some sort of information bulletin or other documentation on?   

Or are you trying to tell me that you know for a fact that AFRCC already has this factored in their procedures and upon the start of a search they will be prompting the IC for the information needed to request this information from the proper source? 

[lordmonar]

Guys, here is my point:  There is a technology out there that has the potential to dramatically aid CAP in certain missions.  As far as I can tell, CAP has not made any attempt to make its ICs aware of this technology, how to use it, what limitations there may be, etc.  Don't you think this is worth having some sort of information bulletin or other documentation on?   

Or are you trying to tell me that you know for a fact that AFRCC already has this factored in their procedures and upon the start of a search they will be prompting the IC for the information needed to request this information from the proper source? 

Well, sounds like someone has just volunteered to do some research, contact the national ES guys and do a presentation at the next NB or NEC.  Develop some training material to push down to the wings and pass it on to the squadron level.

[RiverAux]

No, I volunteered to bring it up here and as noted in the first thread, hope somebody from NHQ ES is reading it. 

Unfortunately, as I am not an IC or ES Officer this is not something I'm going to start looking into on my own as I don't have the proper authorities within CAP to start nosing around this area.  If I were, I would probably get an angry call from my Wing Commander within about a half hour of calling AFRCC and asking about this issue, which would be the logical place to start asking questions. 

Never fear, the next time I'm involved in an actual search this will be an issue I will bring up with the IC.