Addition To The Professional Appointments Category On The SM Promotion Chart.

[Ned]

But at least officers neatly fit in with the existing rank structure instead of bending "reality" to their ego. I've talked to a few CAP NCOs and the reason they stated as being an NCO was because they worked for a living and wouldn't be caught dead wearing bars.

Once again, how strange.

CAP NCOs typically have many years of professional military leadership training and experience compared with a typical CAP officer who might have a few weeks worth.

And the CAP NCO is the one "bending  reality to match their egos?"  Shouldn't that be he other way around?

We have what, less than 500 of them total? Is it worth the heartburn to cater to such a small population when we could have a completely unified force?

Maybe it is just me, but after 40+ years in CAP at all levels, including working with our senior USAF counterparts, I haven't seen much "heartburn" over CAP NCOs.  Most of the "heartburn I have encountered comes from the actions of CAP officers.  Our NCOs tend to be among the most professional of our members, perhaps because of their years of uniformed training and experience.

I'm not a fan of advanced promotions for anyone but at least military officers(and NCOs) have leadership experience in almost all cases. I don't see the point in creating a new class of SM for people that don't want to adapt to the way the program is when they could use the exact same experience in the same ways with bars on their collars instead of standing out with stripes.

I have some good news for you.  No one is creating a "new class" of leaders in CAP.  CAP NCOs have been around for over 60 years.

Militaries have used both NCOs and officers fairly universally for a couple of thousand years, and it has seemed to work out just fine.

Really, name a single military organization that has ever been an "officers only" organization.  With the possible exception of the Kentucky Colonel's Association, I've never heard of one.

Why should CAP be different than every other operational military outfit in recorded history?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I actually tend to agree with you both. I think the best way to use the NCO Corp would be to make a real NCO Corp. Allow Senior Members to choose which role they want to pursue in CAP. Make an Officer and NCO corp in a way that NCOs can progress through their ranks. It would be rather simple to make an NCO program for Senior Members, not too much would really have to change from the Cadet promotion system. Use the leadership manuals, tailor them more towards adults and what Senior Member NCOs need to know. Add more to the manual, don't take anything out, just add to it. I wouldn't at all suggest giving each rank a ribbon, just give a ribbon for the milestones and make the rank progression more spread out. 2 months for AMN Basic to AMN same for A1C and SAMN and go on from there progressing one to three or four and so on. I think that training an NCO Corp would be rather Beneficial. Change the rank for SM NCOs to where they are still worn on the sleeve but they have the red prop and triangle in the middle instead of the USAF Star.
[img alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=312[/img]

[rmcmanus]

Speaking of addional professional appointments, I know a fully certified Safety Officer who is the senior individual for an airline.  Considering the emphasis on safety in our organization, do any of yuu think he should be allowed to enter as a 2nd Lt? (he has no prior military service)

[MSgt Van]

"Change the rank for SM NCOs to where they are still worn on the sleeve but they have the red prop and triangle in the middle instead of the USAF Star"

If your intent is to make the NCO grades distinctive from Air Force chevrons, we'd better make some change to the "officer" rank insignia as well.

Here's a thought - get rid of AF rank insignia in all forms.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

"Change the rank for SM NCOs to where they are still worn on the sleeve but they have the red prop and triangle in the middle instead of the USAF Star"

If your intent is to make the NCO grades distinctive from Air Force chevrons, we'd better make some change to the "officer" rank insignia as well.

Here's a thought - get rid of AF rank insignia in all forms.

My thought for that was that may be the only way that USAF might allow us to have a full NCO Corps for SMs wearing the sleeve chevrons.

[MSgt Van]

Oh-my bad.

[DBlair]

In keeping this chain of thought in mind. Why not look at Advanced promotion for other professions.

Personnel Specialty - Human Resource Management
IT Specialist - Various Network and Computer Certifications
Historian - Bachelors Degree in History

or--------- I may get smacked for this one.

Enrolling in a specialty track within your professional field.

Associates Degree - 2nd Lt.
Bachelors Degree - 1st Lt.
Masters Degree - Capt
MD/Phd/DBA or such - Major

or---------- Professional Certifications

PHR for HR Managers - Capt
CSP for Safety - Capt

I'm not against this, nor are many other members from what I've heard in conversations. With many CAP specialties, it works out this way, but then shuns others who have advanced degrees in other areas.

For example, I know of someone with multiple advanced degrees and certifications in IT, but receives no promotion. Likewise, someone with a PhD in Business does not get anything, but an Associates Degree in Accounting does yield a promotion. Someone with a degree in Journalism or Public Relations does not get anything either, nor do many other CAP specialties. There are many other examples, but these special promotions seem to be a very sour note for many, and to be honest, I don't blame them.

Either we add an X degree = special promotion component as above, or we get rid of the entire special promotion category. This being said, if degrees are factored, then they need to recognize only legitimate degrees from regionally accredited schools.

[James Shaw]

This being said, if degrees are factored, then they need to recognize only legitimate degrees from regionally accredited schools.

I would say if the granting institution is recognized by the Department of Education it is a legitimate degree.

[JoeTomasone]

Only one I have ever wished would be changed is the 1st Lt. for a General Radiotelephone license.   Since we're not allowed to repair our radios anymore, that's reasonably pointless.   I'd rather see it for someone with good operating and emergency communications skills, like perhaps a ham radio operator with an Extra class license, maybe?  And some demonstrated emergency communications skills or leadership positions?   Yes, I am very biased on this.

[CAP Producer]

The following are my own opinions and thoughts and not those of the CAP.

A Couple of thoughts:

NCO's - CAP NCOs contribute to their units in meaningful ways. If they do not wish to become a CAP Officer that's fine. NCOs have been an important part of CAP since its founding. Let them wear their stripes. If they want to advance in CAP NCO grade then we should set up a system that allows them to do that.

Special Appointments - This needs to be cleaned up. For example, with Centralized Maint there is no need for CAP to grant special grade for A/C maintainers. We do not use them as maintainers. Some wings use them as managers and liaison to the contractor but any pilot could do this work.

Special appointments need to be limited to mission need. Too many folks receive advanced grades because of a piece of paper on their wall.

If there is a legitimate special circumstance commanders have the flexibility to appoint those truly outstanding and contributing members to advanced grades (Region/CC's can appoint up to Capt and the National Promotion and Awards Team can recommend up to Col. to the NEC/NB)

Awarding advanced rank with an academic degree but without fundamental knowledge of the organization is a mistake. Just because someone has a PHD all that means is they spent allot of money and time in classes and took a lot of tests. It does not make them any more of a contributor or valuable to CAP than the member with a GED that took 8 years to make Major by doing his/her duty.

I have no problem with military officers being appointed to equivalent grade up to Lt Col as long as they contribute their expertise to the organization.

Cadets are receiving too many gimmes when they become senior members. I appreciate that some of our cadets become senior members but they lose out on the senior experience when they get their CP Ratings, Yeager's and the like handed to them on top of advanced rank for cadet milestone awards.

Again these are my thoughts and do not represent the official position of CAP.

[ZigZag911]

With all due respect, since there is scarcely any Health Services program to speak of, and since CAP 'medical' personnel generally can't use their professional skills on behalf of CAP, why is this still a pathway to quick promotion?

Frankly, I think the whole 'professional appointments' business has gotten WAY out of hand...I'd scale it back to chaplains, lawyer, and mental health professionals (which would include some doctors & nurses) qualified to serve as CIS clinical directors.

I'd lose the AE appointments (and I'm a teacher myself...but the majority take the rank & don't do the job!), the accounting positions, and so forth.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have to agree wholeheartedly, with you guys. Quick promotions are way out of hand. I was a cadet and earned my Mitchell. Now I come back to CAP after about 6 yrs out in the Army, and I get 2LT instantly after Phase One. I then take my Yeager test, and pass after about a week of being back in. I am still not sure if I should have gotten that promotion. I do have a good bit of knowledge about CAP (except the uniform changes). I do ES and Cadet Programs, if it weren't for the Cadet Programs specialty track, I would think that the promotion shouldn't be there at all. So far as promotions from being a cadet, I think that there should be a cut off for time out, like maybe two years.

Now with all the BS promotions for useless degrees for members who don't even use them for CAP, that should be a no go. History major? Is your degree mostly in military history? Sure, but you have to be a historian. Fine arts? No. That is one thing I hated about Army Officers, I had a PL out of ROTC as an Infantry Platoon leader. He had no idea what he was doing.  Your degree needs to be in what you are doing for CAP.

[James Shaw]

Your degree needs to be in what you are doing for CAP.

I would have to agree 100% if this were part of the program.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Your degree needs to be in what you are doing for CAP.

I would have to agree 100% if this were part of the program.

I thought it was part of the program, lawyers for example. And accounting.

[DBlair]

Frankly, I think the whole 'professional appointments' business has gotten WAY out of hand

Agreed.

[James Shaw]

Your degree needs to be in what you are doing for CAP.

I would have to agree 100% if this were part of the program.

I thought it was part of the program, lawyers for example. And accounting.

True, I was generally talking about if the program was "open" to other professions and not "restricted" to a few.

[RADIOMAN015]

We should go back to the Warrant Officer Grades.   Most senior members would start out in WO status.   The unit organizational table would determine the maximum rank/grade for each position.

As far as professional appointments go rank should be determined by specialty skills and education of the member.   Initially, I'm skeptical of advancing anyone above WO rank status unless they have at least a BA degree. 

I would think pilots without college degrees should come in as WO3's.   Generally lawyers, nurses, accountants, should come in as 1st Lt's.   Information Technology, Emergency Management, Emergency Medical Services professionals without bachelors degrees would also come in as WO3's.  With Degrees also as lst Lieutenants.

RM

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Sounds a little elitist to me. I think the SM program should be separated by how the SM wants to contribute. I would love to be an NCO.

[Eclipse]

Sounds a little elitist to me. I think the SM program should be separated by how the SM wants to contribute. I would love to be an NCO.

Ohh kay....

And what would that mean you would "do", vs. an officer?

[SarDragon]

Sounds a little elitist to me. I think the SM program should be separated by how the SM wants to contribute. I would love to be an NCO.

Are you now, or have you ever been, an NCO in the US military? Do you have proof?

If so, you, too, can be a CAP NCO.

I have considered the choice many times, and have decided that there is no particular benefit to CAP or myself to be an NCO.