Member wearing Army Uniform/Insignia (Retired Vet)

[Eclipse]

My answer would be:

Any situation which would allow for the wear of civilian clothes, wear whatever you want - you will probably feel somewhat out of place in your uniform when we are wearing t-shirts and shorts to clean up the building, but it is your call.

Any situation where a uniform is mandated by the activity (cadets, flying, other ES), or by custom / UOD - meetings, professional development, etc., you will be in a CAP uniform, including banquets and dinners.

I'm getting very tired of people who join CAP and then are primarily concerned with showing everyone how much they are not in CAP.  Before you start talking about respect for the military service, how about respect for CAP service?

Join CAP, wear our uniform.

[Hawk200]

- He stated that as a retired vet, by law, he is allowed to wear his Army uniform whenever he wants- including CAP activities. His unit's Christmas party and Squadron Banquet are two of the places he wishes to wear his Army Class A uniform in place of a CAP service uniform and he mentioned that any CAP activity where a service coat would be appropriate, he will wear his Army Class A uniform.

He can wear his Army uniform, but he can't function as a CAP member. CAP business, CAP uniform. 39-1 states this already. If he's in Army uniform, he'd be addressed by whatever grade is indicated on that uniform.

As a Leadership officer, he's a poor example.

- On his CAP service uniform blues shirt, he wears:
Combat Infantry Badge and Jump Wings (above ribbons), Pathfinder Badge (left pocket), and either his Air Assault Badge (right pocket) or his Gold-level Army Recruiter Badge (right pocket) ...on his BDUs, he wears blue/white versions of each of these in the same locations.

CIB and jump wings, as indicated worn, are acceptable.

Pathfinder badge, as indicated worn: No. He can wear it, but not on the pocket.

Air Assault, as indicated worn: No. He can wear it, but not on the pocket.

Recruiter badge: not authorized on CAP uniforms. The Air Force recruiter badges aren't even authorized.

On BDUs in same positions: No.

For both uniforms, pick any two and wear above ribbons or CAP tape.

With this kind of stupidity, I'd want to see his DD214 or NGB 22 to see what he is actually authorized. It seems funky to me.

Please note that I am by no means attempting to discredit what he has accomplished in the Army, but rather just wanting clarification as to what is allowed in a CAP capacity and on a CAP uniform.

No discredit to the Army is inferred. 

In a CAP capacity, his Army uniform is not recognized. The only recognition he should receive then is that of a guest who happens to be retired military. He doesn't perform any CAP functions while wearing an Army uniform. Soldiers don't lead our programs, CAP members do.

2LT Joe Blow, CAP, should be wearing a uniform that says 2LT Joe Blow, CAP; not a uniform that says SFC Joe Blow, US Army, Ret.

[Major Lord]

I am not aware of any part of 39-1 that requires a CAP uniform to be worn during all possible CAP activities, in other words, a flat ban on wearing of civilian or other clothes. In fact, Civvie wear is required under certain circumstances while on CAP business. This is not advocating for the wear of Army (or other) uniforms, but I think its a stretch to say that you must be in a CAP uniform for all CAP activities.

Major Lord

[Ned]

As a Leadership officer, he's a poor example.

I think this goes too far.  All we know is that this veteran wears his authorized Army badges on his CAP uniform in the same way he wore them on his Army uniform, which is clearly improper.

But not every uniform violation makes a volunteer a "poor example."  Otherwise, I suspect we would have run out of "good examples" 30 years ago.

The 39-1 has over 100 pages and includes dozens of detailed tables, diagrams, and footnotes.  (Some of which are internally inconsistent/contradictory).  And that doesn't include the multiple change letters published over the last several years.

I've made uniform mistakes; you have made uniform mistakes.  Are we both equally "poor examples?"


Similarly,

With this kind of stupidity, I'd want to see his DD214 or NGB 22 to see what he is actually authorized. It seems funky to me.

I ask you to reconsider using the term "stupidity" to refer to what may be inadvertant uniform errors, particularly ones made by a veteran who is wearing his uniform the way he did for years before his retirement.  Yes, he is in error, but it seems inappropriate to charactorize him or his error as "stupid" without more information than we have here.

That said, I think it is always a good idea for a commander and/or the Membership Committee to review a DD214 to verify a veteran applicant's training and awards early in the process.

[Eclipse]

I am not aware of any part of 39-1 that requires a CAP uniform to be worn during all possible CAP activities, in other words, a flat ban on wearing of civilian or other clothes. In fact, Civvie wear is required under certain circumstances while on CAP business. This is not advocating for the wear of Army (or other) uniforms, but I think its a stretch to say that you must be in a CAP uniform for all CAP activities.

By regs, no.  By CC directive, yes.  The regulations clearly indicate that a CC may prescribe any uniform he wishes for seniors.

To Ned's comments above, his reaction will actually dictate his example.
If this is handled professionally and discreetly and he makes the appropriate adjustments without a lot of drama, great example.  Everyone makes mistakes. If he doesn't, then poor leadership.

I would not personally be inclined to appoint a leadership officer who can't follow the regulations and command dictates of the organization he is trying to guide.

[Ned]

I am not aware of any part of 39-1 that requires a CAP uniform to be worn during all possible CAP activities, in other words, a flat ban on wearing of civilian or other clothes. In fact, Civvie wear is required under certain circumstances while on CAP business. This is not advocating for the wear of Army (or other) uniforms, but I think its a stretch to say that you must be in a CAP uniform for all CAP activities.

Major Lord

This has changed a bit over the years.

At this point, Table 1-1 says that members wear the CAP uniform when:

"participating in or conducting the cadet program;

flying in CAP aircraft;

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national functions;

and visiting military installations."

So, I suppose there may well be room for civlian clothes when participating in abnormal CAP duties not involving the cadet program, a military facility, flying in a CAP aircradt, or attending CAP "functions."

I can't think of anything that might fit those conditions off-hand, but maybe there are some unusual, non-flying CN stuff going on out there.

[spacecommand]

I see this beyond more then the regulations. So if there is a promotion ceremony, change of command or wing conference where things might be a bit more formal, he's going to show up in Army Class As? That's a bit different then showing up in Army uniform for say a Christmas party or banquet.  I have retried Navy Captains in my squadron, and I have never seen them in a navy uniform they always show up in CAP/USAF uniforms.  I think it's about being part of the team in a way rather then taking the stance that "the law says I can" so I will.

[GroundHawg]

I am prior service Army and a current USAF Reservist. Here is my take on this.
1. Parachute Wings are no longer considered an aeronautical rating, though they do take precedence over all other badges except Aviation Wings
2. 39-1 states that only badges allowed to be worn on a USAF uniform may be worn. Here is where my opinion on this is different than most everyone else. And most here will disagree with me on this but...USAF regs state that the CIB, CAB, CMB, Ranger Tab, and Pathfinder may only be worn when perm attached to the Army. And within the last year, the Air Assault can be permanently worn only on the BDU (not ABU or Dress) So I personally would only wear on a dress uniform the Jump Wings, and on the BDU's the Jump Wings and Air Assault Wings.
I know that 39-1 says "CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform" and that all of the above badges can be worn on the USAF uniform, but there are stipulations for wear as a USAF member.
The way I figure it is that as a reservist in the USAF, I had to take off all but 1 of my badges, I will wear only that badge in Civil Air Patrol You know what they say about opinions...

[AirAux]

Not to stir up a hornet's nest, but I require my prior service members to bring in their DD-214's and put a copy in their records.  Over the years, I have had a couple of guys not return after the request.  Maybe nothing, but maybe hot air??  If they have earned everything they are claiming, they are proud to bring it in,  as usual, JMHO..

[Hawk200]

I am not aware of any part of 39-1 that requires a CAP uniform to be worn during all possible CAP activities, in other words, a flat ban on wearing of civilian or other clothes. In fact, Civvie wear is required under certain circumstances while on CAP business.

From 39-1: "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions"

Doesn't look like there's any other option. The key words are "when engaged in normal duties." If you're at the National Board meeting, after hours you're not "engaged in normal duties." So, no, I'm not saying that you have to have it on every single moment you're even around a CAP related activity.

Civvies during encampment are certainly appropriate after hours, and the same applies to similar situations. A cadet or senior wearing civivies after hours at an encampment is acceptable. A cadet or senior after hours engaged in CQ duties should be in a uniform. Those are just a couple of common sense examples. Performing duties at a meeting is a common sense example of when a CAP uniform is to be worn.

As a Leadership officer, he's a poor example.

I think this goes too far.  All we know is that this veteran wears his authorized Army badges on his CAP uniform in the same way he wore them on his Army uniform, which is clearly improper.

As described, he's not even wearing them in a manner consistent with Army wear. There's only a few certain badges authorized on the pocket itself, and only one has been referenced that is worn in that manner (recruiter badge).

But not every uniform violation makes a volunteer a "poor example."  Otherwise, I suspect we would have run out of "good examples" 30 years ago.

The uniform infractions aren't what I'm really referencing, although they are a source of concern.

The 39-1 has over 100 pages and includes dozens of detailed tables, diagrams, and footnotes.  (Some of which are internally inconsistent/contradictory).  And that doesn't include the multiple change letters published over the last several years.

Agreed.

I've made uniform mistakes; you have made uniform mistakes.  Are we both equally "poor examples?"

I've made very few, and that's because I made it a point of reading the uniform manual before I ever wore a CAP uniform. When I rejoined after a break, I tracked down everything related to uniforms to ensure that I wore it properly. The only thing I ever had someone make a stink over was having a ribbon flipped (the device was upside down, that's how they could tell). Had more than a few people try to tell me things weren't authorized, and I showed them that it was in the manual.

Simple mistakes are one thing. Choosing to wear whatever you want, however you want is indeed a poor example of leadership.

With this kind of stupidity, I'd want to see his DD214 or NGB 22 to see what he is actually authorized. It seems funky to me.

I ask you to reconsider using the term "stupidity" to refer to what may be inadvertant uniform errors, particularly ones made by a veteran who is wearing his uniform the way he did for years before his retirement.  Yes, he is in error, but it seems inappropriate to charactorize him or his error as "stupid" without more information than we have here.

And I'll tell you that unless there is a drastic difference in how this story is related, I won't. The errors on the CAP uniform aren't even what concerns me.

That said, I think it is always a good idea for a commander and/or the Membership Committee to review a DD214 to verify a veteran applicant's training and awards early in the process.

Agreed, and I've made it a practice to do so. I've told people before "I don't care if you have a military ID card, we treat you the same as the military does. You don't wear it unless you have proof." If a person legitimately has awards/decs/badges they understand this.

There are copies of my latest DD 214 in my file. If anyone wishes to review it, they may do so, I will happily show it to them, even educate them as to what decoration is what. I've never minded that.

[Hawk200]

1. Parachute Wings are no longer considered an aeronautical rating, though they do take precedence over all other badges except Aviation Wings

Not even really relevant. If someone has earned them, they can wear them. Whether or not it's an aeronautical rating is really immaterial.

2. 39-1 states that only badges allowed to be worn on a USAF uniform may be worn. Here is where my opinion on this is different than most everyone else. And most here will disagree with me on this but...USAF regs state that the CIB, CAB, CMB, Ranger Tab, and Pathfinder may only be worn when perm attached to the Army. And within the last year, the Air Assault can be permanently worn only on the BDU (not ABU or Dress) So I personally would only wear on a dress uniform the Jump Wings, and on the BDU's the Jump Wings and Air Assault Wings.
I know that 39-1 says "CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform" and that all of the above badges can be worn on the USAF uniform, but there are stipulations for wear as a USAF member.
The way I figure it is that as a reservist in the USAF, I had to take off all but 1 of my badges, I will wear only that badge in Civil Air Patrol You know what they say about opinions...

Table 6-5 on page 116 lists Air Assault, Pathfinder, and CIB as authorized. Until that is specifically changed somehow, those are permitted badges. We follow our own pubs on this, and when it changes, so do we. But that change hasn't occured yet.

There could be multiple reasons as to why those are still there. One, it could be something old that will be eliminated in the next publication of 39-1. Two, the Air Force may permit it for CAP as an allowance to those who have served. This is total supposition and conjecture, don't take it as gospel.

It's really a no cost morale maintainer, it doesn't hurt anyone to allow it. There are a few that get jealous of those with military badges/decs, I've faced it before. But that's not really a good reason to deny it. I've explained to people that those awards/badges/decs are simply a resume in fancy colors. Most people get over it when it's explained that I've just done a lot of things, I'm not any better than them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have a retired Army captain who can be a challenge at times. Being constant with little things like hard rank gets old after a while. I usually resort to the importance of being correct in front of the cadets, which he does respect.

Meaning: does he try to wear hard railway tracks on the AF service coat?

I served in a unit years ago with a former AF Pararescue guy and he wore his metal Pararescue beret badge (http://www.flyingtigerssurplus.com/big-id-12-shbgid-3783.html) above his CAP nameplate.  I had just joined CAP and was still getting used to CAP uniform regs, which were in a state of flux during that time anyway (the hated berry boards) so I wasn't sure if it was correct or not (it's not).

I also knew a retired RCAF F-5 pilot who had moved here to fly for the airlines and he had joined CAP.  He'd earned several decorations while in the Queen's service but couldn't wear them on the CAP uniform...he said National told him all he could wear was his wings (http://jfchalifoux.com/pilot_metal.jpg)...at least he took the time to do the research and find out.

[arajca]

- He stated that as a retired vet, by law, he is allowed to wear his Army uniform whenever he wants- including CAP activities. His unit's Christmas party and Squadron Banquet are two of the places he wishes to wear his Army Class A uniform in place of a CAP service uniform and he mentioned that any CAP activity where a service coat would be appropriate, he will wear his Army Class A uniform.

He is correct by law, however, as pointed out, by CAP regulation he needs to wear the CAP uniform to CAP functions. The fact that he has decided he will wear the Army uniform instead of the CAP uniform (see bolded) at some CAP functions shows a lack of respect for CAP. As Leadership Officer, he serves as a bad example. ("Yea, I'll wear your uniform unless it's a dress occasion, then I'm wearing the Army's uniform to your event because I want to show off and the heck with your regs.")

The requirement to wear CAP uniforms at CAP activities has been pointed out many times here. If he was coming in to talk about his Army career, then the Army uniform is appropriate.

[Major Lord]

I don't read the 39-1 as all-inclusive ( and I won't even mention the stale-dated ICL's! Darn, I just did! ) Clearly, the appropriate uniform to wear to a CAP activity is a CAP uniform, with military devices, if any, worn according to regulations. But if the strictest reading is assumed, then for example, A Senior Member out of Uniform could not stop by a meeting on his way home from work to sign all those Form 31's for happy little badgers who might otherwise miss an activity. Ned characterized the situation as "abnormal", but I would say that a SM does not for instance, need to put on his uniform to go to Home Depot to buy light-bulbs ( Or the nearest politically correct substitute) for the Squadron, even though he is carrying out "CAP business".  The after hours encampment exception above is also a good example, and is hardly a statistical exception. That being said Army guy; Show up at the appointed time in the appointed uniform, not with some hodgepodge of unauthorized bling, flare, and widgets. If in doubt, find a Spaatz cadet to help you make sense of the ancient 39-1, from the Book of Maxwell.

Major Lord

[FlyTiger77]

So, either a currently-serving or retired USAF officer should only show up to the annual banquet in his/her CAP uniform and not in his/her USAF attire?

[Lawson]

So, either a currently-serving or retired USAF officer should only show up to the annual banquet in his/her CAP uniform and not in his/her USAF attire?

I would say if you want to show up as a currently-serving/retired USAF officer, and a guest, then wear the USAF uniform. If you want to show up as a CAP member, then you should be in the CAP uniform.

[Major Lord]

So, either a currently-serving or retired USAF officer should only show up to the annual banquet in his/her CAP uniform and not in his/her USAF attire?

I think you have made my point by highlighting another exemption to the 39-1 "Rule".  Purely social occasions that are clearly CAP functions do not require the CAP uniform. Most female members don't wear the uniform, opting for gowns. Male members who are too corpulent or fuzzy to wear the formal CAP uniform may opt to wear black tie, (there being no distinctive-uniform formal alternative) and retired or active duty members may wear the uniform of their native service. 39-1 in my opinion outlines the rules for wearing a CAP uniform, but can't include all possible permutations for exceptions. Clearly, there are many.

Major Lord

[Hawk200]

But if the strictest reading is assumed, then for example, A Senior Member out of Uniform could not stop by a meeting on his way home from work to sign all those Form 31's for happy little badgers who might otherwise miss an activity.

I would consider this a common sense example of when it's really not going to hurt anything. Requiring it for every instance that could conceivably be considered "CAP business" would mean that you would have to dress up in a CAP uniform just to call someone about something in CAP. It's obviously way too far, and completely unreasonable.

Stopping to sign some forms is a lot different than attending/participating/presenting/instructing during a meeting. To throw another hypothetical in the mix: Would anyone really consider it acceptable to show up at a SAREX or mission wearing a uniform other than a CAP one? I don't think it would be, and I doubt many others would either.

Ned characterized the situation as "abnormal", but I would say that a SM does not for instance, need to put on his uniform to go to Home Depot to buy light-bulbs ( Or the nearest politically correct substitute) for the Squadron, even though he is carrying out "CAP business".

Agreed.

Show up at the appointed time in the appointed uniform, not with some hodgepodge of unauthorized bling, flare, and widgets. If in doubt, find a Spaatz cadet to help you make sense of the ancient 39-1, from the Book of Maxwell.

Definitely agree. Army service is admirable and honorable, but wearing the Army uniform to regular meetings when you're an active participant is wrong, and as someone stated above, disrespectful to CAP. You may be allowed to do it, but there are times it is not appropriate.

The improper wear of the bling concerns me. If he showed up with his Army badges on his BDUs worn in the exact same configuration as the Army wears them, I'd tell him thank you for his service, and his accomplishments are commendable, but we have a certain manner that things are supposed to be worn. I'd also show him the pub on it.

The way it is described here leads me to believe that things were just thrown on, and that is what is suspicious to me. I've seen several posers, and most of the time they wore things wrong, and quoted things that they couldn't prove. The guy is affecting his own credibility. He may have earned them all, but right now, I question it. Had a couple guys that did hardcorps stuff, and they were pretty quiet about it. Most of them didn't even know they could wear some of the stuff they had earned.

[Hawk200]

So, either a currently-serving or retired USAF officer should only show up to the annual banquet in his/her CAP uniform and not in his/her USAF attire?

I think you have made my point by highlighting another exemption to the 39-1 "Rule".  Purely social occasions that are clearly CAP functions do not require the CAP uniform. Most female members don't wear the uniform, opting for gowns. Male members who are too corpulent or fuzzy to wear the formal CAP uniform may opt to wear black tie, (there being no distinctive-uniform formal alternative) and retired or active duty members may wear the uniform of their native service. 39-1 in my opinion outlines the rules for wearing a CAP uniform, but can't include all possible permutations for exceptions. Clearly, there are many.

Major Lord

Personally, I don't see a problem with a retiree wearing their service formal uniform to something like a dining out. It's a CAP function, but is it really CAP business? Unless you're doing paperwork, instruction or something of that nature, it doesn't seem like "business" to me.

[spacecommand]

A lot of different issues here.  As mentioned if he's going to a social function like say the Christmas "Holiday" dinner, then I don't mind either or.  However when he states any time he might have to wear the full CAP/USAF Service Blues he's going to wear the Army Class A instead concerns me ("because the law says he can").  There are formal situations I can think of where one might want to wear full service blues (promotion ceremonies, change of command etc). 

There are CAP functions that it still (in my opinion) might not seem appropriate.  For example CAP Wing Conference awards luncheon or dinner banquet.   No paperwork or instruction going on at those particular functions, but still seems odd and out of place to be a CAP member, attending the conference as a CAP member, but go to the luncheon or dinner but deciding to wear the Army uniform instead (since those functions are usually more formal enough to be wearing service blues).