Time in Grade

[tsrup]

the training is irrelevant in this issue.

The issue is whether the member has had the experience being responsible and accountable for equipment, duty assignments, the whole nine yards.  Not to mention that while a CSM has no specialty track, the SM theoretically has been working on one for 6 months now with a duty position. 

That is the main difference.

We can argue the spirit of the reg untill we are blue in the face, but the reg is what it is. 

Duty performance promotions are for just that, performance of a duty position, which CSM's are expressly forbidden in 39-2.  Not to mention 35-5 is pretty clear on the subject.


If you feel there are extenuating circumstances, I have provided the appropriate section of 35-5 in a previous post for your convenience.


edit:  And I also see no logical reason for a CSM to come near an aircraft, but if circumstances manifested themselves as such, then I would require them to take aircraft ground handling as well.  If not just for their own protection.

double edit: 39-2 says that CSMs can be passengers in CAP aircraft.  further reason why aircraft ground handling training for them isn't that bad of an idea.  wouldn't make it mandatory for all, just those who are going to be near or on our aircraft.

[lordmonar]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperone.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Actually CSM's can do more then chaperone.....and according to KB.....their time does count.

I thought 35-5 was the regulating authority for promotions?

and it is pretty clear

Promotion To   Minimum Skill       Time-In-Grade
2d Lt                    Level I             6 months as senior member

Notice it says "as senior member" not "as a senior member"

CSMs....are Senior Members.

[tsrup]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperone.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Actually CSM's can do more then chaperone.....and according to KB.....their time does count.

I thought 35-5 was the regulating authority for promotions?

and it is pretty clear

Promotion To   Minimum Skill       Time-In-Grade
2d Lt                    Level I             6 months as senior member

Notice it says "as senior member" not "as a senior member"

CSMs....are Senior Members.

true, but the reg says "6 months as senior member" i.e. the Grade SM

if it were otherwise the wording would be "6 months as a senior member"

[lordmonar]

the training is irrelevant in this issue.

The issue is whether the member has had the experience being responsible and accountable for equipment, duty assignments, the whole nine yards.  Not to mention that while a CSM has no specialty track, the SM theoretically has been working on one for 6 months now with a duty position.

That is an assumption that is NOT supported by regulations.

That is the main difference.

We can argue the spirit of the reg untill we are blue in the face, but the reg is what it is. 

Duty performance promotions are for just that, performance of a duty position, which CSM's are expressly forbidden in 39-2.  Not to mention 35-5 is pretty clear on the subject.


If you feel there are extenuating circumstances, I have provided the appropriate section of 35-5 in a previous post for your convenience.


edit:  And I also see no logical reason for a CSM to come near an aircraft, but if circumstances manifested themselves as such, then I would require them to take aircraft ground handling as well.  If not just for their own protection.

I don't quite understand what the controversy is.

The question was.....does a members CSM time count for TIG after they transfer to regular membership.  The regs are not clear....and national through KB has said yes. 

[lordmonar]

true, but the reg says "6 months as senior member" i.e. the Grade SM

if it were otherwise the wording would be "6 months as a senior member"

CSM's have the same grade as any regular Senior Member when the first join.....SMWOG.  Again.....I don't see what the problem really is.

[ßτε]

CSMs....are Senior Members.

No, they are not. They are a separate membership category. See CAPR 39-2.
Chapter 3 describes the Senior Member category.
Chapter 5 describes the CSM category.

[a2capt]

..and as I've noted, this is a segment where the requirements are identical to advance in the program and function in any capacity.  Level I must be completed.

At the end of Level I, an "Active Member" would be eligible for a promotion, a "Sponsor Member" would .. continue to sponsor. 

That same "Active Member" has to do nothing more than show an interest, and could function in exactly the same role boundaries that a "Sponsor Member" did during that period and be promoted.

But if the "Sponsor Member" decides, you know what? I do want to do more here, I want to participate in the professional development and benefit from more than just what I've done so far..

Perhaps thats the way it is, adults are "Senior Members" with "Active", "Sponsor" or "Patron" status. But the reg-hounds are gonna say "thats not what the regulation says.." this is all about the initial 6 month/level I qualification only, this isn't anything to do with sneaking up to Capt. or further.

[tsrup]

That same "Active Member" has to do nothing more than show an interest, and could function in exactly the same role boundaries that a "Sponsor Member" did during that period and be promoted.

which would violate 35-5

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a.   General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must: (1)   Be at least 21 years of age. (2)   Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent). (3)   Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
(5)   Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

Not only is a "check in the box" promotion system frowned upon, but it is also against regulations.

[Grumpy]

The issue is whether the member has had the experience being responsible and accountable for equipment, duty assignments, the whole nine yards.  Not to mention that while a CSM has no specialty track, the SM theoretically has been working on one for 6 months now with a duty position. 

The way I understand 50-17, you don't enter into a specialty track until AFTER you finish Level I and enter into Level II.
I could be wrong though.

[caphornbuckle]

I think we're looking WAY too deep into what is going on.

The question was asked and answered by Civil Air Patrol.  That's what the KB is there for (yes, I've seen them wrong sometimes too, but it is a reference that can be used if something is in question).  To answer questions that are not 100% clear in the regs (IMHO I'm still not convinced this situation is clear in the regs).

This is in no offense to the "Butter Bars" out there but it IS only Second Lieutenant.  If it was for Captain or above, I would have grave concerns but it isn't.

I agree that NHQ should look into this type of situation and determine if it is a suitable enough of an issue to bring in a change in regulations to clarify what is appropriate.

Until then, the Squadron Commander is the approving authority and if they feel it is appropriate to promote a former CSM once they become a SM with all the requirements met, I wouldn't see a problem with allowing them to promote to 2nd Lt (again IMHO).

[tsrup]

The issue is whether the member has had the experience being responsible and accountable for equipment, duty assignments, the whole nine yards.  Not to mention that while a CSM has no specialty track, the SM theoretically has been working on one for 6 months now with a duty position. 

The way I understand 50-17, you don't enter into a specialty track until AFTER you finish Level I and enter into Level II.
I could be wrong though.

AFIK you need level 1 to complete your technician rating, but as for enrolling in it no.

The table at the bottom of 50-17 even has selecting a specialty track as part of even completing level 1.

[Grumpy]

the training is irrelevant in this issue.

The issue is whether the member has had the experience being responsible and accountable for equipment, duty assignments, the whole nine yards.  Not to mention that while a CSM has no specialty track, the SM theoretically has been working on one for 6 months now with a duty position.  That is the main difference.

We can argue the spirit of the reg untill we are blue in the face, but the reg is what it is. 

Duty performance promotions are for just that, performance of a duty position, which CSM's are expressly forbidden in 39-2.  Not to mention 35-5 is pretty clear on the subject.


If you feel there are extenuating circumstances, I have provided the appropriate section of 35-5 in a previous post for your convenience.


edit:  And I also see no logical reason for a CSM to come near an aircraft, but if circumstances manifested themselves as such, then I would require them to take aircraft ground handling as well.  If not just for their own protection.

double edit: 39-2 says that CSMs can be passengers in CAP aircraft.  further reason why aircraft ground handling training for them isn't that bad of an idea.  wouldn't make it mandatory for all, just those who are going to be near or on our aircraft.

I took a look at 50-17.  In Chap. 3, para 3-1 it states, "CAP requires members to complete Level I training PRIOR to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses".

So your statement about about a senior member having already worked in a duty position going on 6 months confuses me.

[jimmydeanno]

^Theoretically, the new SM could complete level one in a few hours after joining.  So on day 2 of membership they could be assigned to a duty position.

[Eclipse]

^Theoretically, the new SM could complete level one in a few hours after joining.  So on day 2 of membership they could be assigned to a duty position.

They can't be appointed to anything until their background check clears.

[ßτε]

^Theoretically, the new SM could complete level one in a few hours after joining.  So on day 2 of membership they could be assigned to a duty position.

They can't be appointed to anything until their background check clears.

I'm trying to find where in the regulations that is located.
Do you have a reference?

[Eclipse]

A commander can't record the completion of Level 1 until the member is an active, approved member.

[ßτε]

A commander can't record the completion of Level 1 until the member is an active, approved member.

This is not true. On more than one occasion we have had members credited with Level I before the member is in approved status.

[tsrup]

A commander can't record the completion of Level 1 until the member is an active, approved member.

This is not true. On more than one occasion we have had members credited with Level I before the member is in approved status.

I finished my level one within hours of showing up in eServices

[lordmonar]

^Theoretically, the new SM could complete level one in a few hours after joining.  So on day 2 of membership they could be assigned to a duty position.

They can't be appointed to anything until their background check clears.

Not true......they can't be left alone with cadets until they get their permanant cards....but once they have a CAP ID number they can be assigned to just about any duty.

[lordmonar]

A commander can't record the completion of Level 1 until the member is an active, approved member.

Commander's cant record anyone's completion of Level 1.  That can only be done at wing.  All they need to have is a CAP ID so that they can log onto EServices.