Mission Related Promotion for a Rotary Wing Pilot

[Eclipse]

Sorry Eclipse, I gotta call you on that one, There is no way you spend 40 hours a week on CAP, unless you count your hours on CapTalk.  I have over 20 years in CAP and over 10 of those are in command positions.  I am assuming that you have a real 40 hour per week job, which is standard in this country.  If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy.

I know plenty of members and a number of commanders who felt they could be effective leaders doing nothing more than participating on meeting nights (or even less) they were wrong.

Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion.

[GTCommando]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

[JeffDG]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

[Larry Mangum]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

If the member in question is actually teaching ground instruction to CAP members then, I would support his promotion to Captain, but only if he is actually doing so. Automatically granting rank to someone because they are a CFI should not be condoned and indeed the regulation shows this.  The problem comes when people try to stretch the reasons for doing so, i.e. he an teach versus actually teaching; when that is done it can be a slap in the face to that member who is not rated and busting his or her butt off to make the unit a success.

[JeffDG]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

If the member in question is actually teaching ground instruction to CAP members then, I would support his promotion to Captain, but only if he is actually doing so. Automatically granting rank to someone because they are a CFI should not be condoned and indeed the regulation shows this.  The problem comes when people try to stretch the reasons for doing so, i.e. he an teach versus actually teaching; when that is done it can be a slap in the face to that member who is not rated and busting his or her butt off to make the unit a success.

With no evidence presented to the contrary, I presume that the individual's unit commander is doing their job, and their certification that the skills are being used in furtherance of a CAP mission is enough for me.

Now, if someone has evidence that the unit cc is pencil whipping such promotions, then that's an entirely different matter, but in the presented situation, no such evidence has been presented beyond "Well, it happens all the time..." which is, IMHO, an attack on the integrity of the unit cc who is making the promotion recommendation, unless there is evidence that that unit cc is doing so.

[GTCommando]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Could you explain the acronyms please? I pulled the regs off the knowledge base, I'm not a pilot, and I have no idea what the acronyms mean.

[JeffDG]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Could you explain the acronyms please? I pulled the regs off the knowledge base, I'm not a pilot, and I have no idea what the acronyms mean.

Sure...

CFI-Certified Flight Instructor
CFII-Certified Flight Instructor Instrument (can give training for Instrument Instruction)
RH-Rotorcraft Helicopter (shorthand...most of the time you see CFI-A for airplane.  Another you'll see is MEI which is Multi Engine Instructor)
IGI is an Instrument Ground Instructor who can teach you ground school for your IR, and do sim training as well.  The other two ground ones are BGI (Basic Ground Instructor) and AGI (Advanced Ground Instructor)

[AirAux]

PIC = pilot in command
MP = Mission Pilot
CFII-RH = certified flight instrument instructor rotarycraft
IGI = instrument ground instructor

Eclipse,
"Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion."  Come on man, you are attacking my crediblility after you claim that you put 40 hours or more into CAP per week??  Get real..  For all you know, I am the "magic" that makes these things happen.  I'll stand my time against yours any day.. But there is no way on God's liitle green Earth that you put 40 hours a week into CAP outside of Captalk.  You put almost that much time every week into Captalk, so I know it isn't mssion related.. 

[JeffDG]

PIC = pilot in command
MP = Mission Pilot

TMP-Transport Mission Pilot...missed those ones, thanks!

To GTCommando...the FAA tends to breed an alphabet soup of acronyms, as I'm sure reading this you're aware.  Add on the semi-military nature of CAP, and there's a whole lotta TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) to learn!

[vento]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

[vento]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

[JeffDG]

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

Yes, and the regs also say you only need to be CFI to be eligible (provided you're contributing the skills, performing at an exemplary level worth of promotion, etc) for mission-related promotion to Captain.  It makes no distinction between CFI-A and CFI-RH, or for that matter CFI-LTA-Gas Baloon

[Eclipse]

Eclipse,
"Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion."  Come on man, you are attacking my crediblility after you claim that you put 40 hours or more into CAP per week??  Get real..  For all you know, I am the "magic" that makes these things happen.  I'll stand my time against yours any day.. But there is no way on God's liitle green Earth that you put 40 hours a week into CAP outside of Captalk.  You put almost that much time every week into Captalk, so I know it isn't mssion related..

So in one message CAP is just a "sideshow" to you, in another you're the magic? Pick one and go with it...

My time on CT has nothing to do with my "real" involvement, and trying to compare the two means you know little about how these forums actually function.  Further, my assertion was that many people spend an equal amount of time or more in CAP than in the regular jobs, if that means 40 hours to you, so be it.  Don't make assumptions regarding what and how people earn their livings, or how long it takes them.

[GTCommando]

To GTCommando...the FAA tends to breed an alphabet soup of acronyms, as I'm sure reading this you're aware.  Add on the semi-military nature of CAP, and there's a whole lotta TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) to learn!

I hear ya. I'll have been in two years tomorrow, and I'm still getting the hang of TLAs. Then again, as my username implies, I've focused on GSAR, so there's not been much time to learn FAA's jargon, though I want to eventually.

[AirAux]

Eclipse, let me say that I will agree that we both put in an inordinate amount of time into CAP and we both wish others would at least put in 4 hours a week.  Can we agree on that?  As usual in any volunteer organization you have the 10% that do almost all of the work.  I would imagine that most of the people that post regularly on Captalk are probably in that minority.  God only knows what we could do if we could get everyone as inspired as we are about CAP.  Best kept secret in the world..   

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, let me say that I will agree that we both put in an inordinate amount of time into CAP and we both wish others would at least put in 4 hours a week.  Can we agree on that?  As usual in any volunteer organization you have the 10% that do almost all of the work.  I would imagine that most of the people that post regularly on Captalk are probably in that minority.  God only knows what we could do if we could get everyone as inspired as we are about CAP.  Best kept secret in the world..

Agreed.

[spacecommand]

I think it is an attack on the credibility on all volunteers to call CAP a sideshow to real life.  Just my opinion.

[AirAux]

Any time you can feed the wife and kids on what we make in CAP, more power to you.  What we do is extremely important and some of us put more time into it than we should to the detriment of our families and businesses.. In reality, it is not our main job in life.. When you have the years of experience that I have you may feel different.  And it has nothing to do with credibility..  Sideshow or not, my butt has been out of bed in the middle of the night many, many more times than I would have desired, but I answer when called.  that didn't relief me of the need to get out of bed in the morning and and answer life..  Work hard at what you do in CAP, but remember, it isn't the Real Military and it isn't all there is to life..  JMHO..   

edited to correct misspelling..

[Thrashed]

[/quote]
Let's see what 35-5 says about Aerospace Education Officer promotions:

"A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member."
[/quote]

No one's talking about AEO or promotion by AEO.  One of CAP's missions is AE and a CFI is good at AE.  If he's contributing to a mission of CAP with his CFI he can promote to Capt. I'm a CFI and I'm not an AEO.  I'm not a CAP CFI, yet I promoted to Capt.  You don't even have to be a CFI; it says CFI or ATP.  I use all my knowledge and skills anyway I can for CAP.

[caphornbuckle]

Wow, is it no wonder that we don't have Army Aviator rotor types lining up to join and assist us.  I could sure use a handful to help me with my squadron.  Their experience and motivational affect on the cadets would be worth captain alone.

Usually an Army Aviator will be an officer or Warrant Officer anyways.  Though not mandatory (but most times), they can receive a CAP grade equal to their Army Rank regardless of their pilot credentials.