Mission Related Promotion for a Rotary Wing Pilot

[AirDX]

The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

Care to show me that one in a reg?

As far as I'm concerned some one contributing to any one or all of the CAP's three missions is using their knowledge and skills to benefit CAP.  You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.   

[Flying Pig]

The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

Care to show me that one in a reg?

As far as I'm concerned some one contributing to any one or all of the CAP's three missions is using their knowledge and skills to benefit CAP.  You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.

Hence the word "intent"  but I also stated NHQ has the final say. Anyone can teach cadets a class.  You dont have to be a CFI to teach aerospace, only to teach it for the purposes of a checkride.  Again, but to be a CAP CFI takes more than just having any CFI rating.  Then I say heck, lets make Capt the entry level grade if all you have to do in contribute.

[AirDX]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.

That's extraordinarily narrow-minded.  One of the best classes I ever went through was a Northwest Airlines CRM class - taught by a flight attendant.

[Flying Pig]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.

That's extraordinarily narrow-minded.  One of the best classes I ever went through was a Northwest Airlines CRM class - taught by a flight attendant.

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

[AirDX]

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

Ho hum.  I didn't think I needed to point out that I was talking about FAA-required, FAA-approved, FAA-monitored aviation-related training required to ply one's trade in the industry.  Please save the snide remarks for someone else, and sharpen the point on your ego elsewhere.

[EMT-83]

I don't agree that a Mission Related Skill promotion is appropriate in this situation, and wouldn't have initiated one. That's just my opinion, and you know what they say about everyone having an opinion. 

However, if the information becomes available, I would be very interested in learning how NHQ (or Wing, or whoever) arrived at the grade of first lieutenant.

[Flying Pig]

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

Ho hum.  I didn't think I needed to point out that I was talking about FAA-required, FAA-approved, FAA-monitored aviation-related training required to ply one's trade in the industry.  Please save the snide remarks for someone else, and sharpen the point on your ego elsewhere.

  Roger that.  You wont hear any argument from me that my ego is about as sharp is it needs to be.  Good luck with your member.

[JeffDG]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave. 

I went to a class once on communications taught by an IGI who wasn't a pilot.  He was a controller and knew the nuances of ATC communications better than any CFI I've ever met.  If you wanna leave, feel free, more room for those who want to learn.

[NIN]

Guys, I read the start of this thread, then came back to the end of it. Whew.

(I have deliberately left out the middle, and I'm probably better off for it)

Having been a squadron commander, and a wing staff officer multiple times, in multiple wings, I can safely say that promotion standards such as those for advanced promotions based on missing skills or professional qualifications are, uh, how can I put this?  "Unevenly applied" would be probably the best way I can say it.   Heck, even the standards for Duty Performance promotions in some wings (*cough* New York) were, at one time, far, far more stringent than the nationally mandated standards found in the reg.

What does that mean?  That means that a squadron commander in CA might know that his approving authority for mission related skills and professional appointment promotions won't sign off on one of these promotions without a demonstrated application of said qualification to the CAP mission. A _direct_ application, not a perceived or implied one.  (note: I remember that 35-5 even says this, that doesn't mean that every echelon adheres to it)

Likewise, a unit commander in, say, Idaho, might know that his wing will sign anything that comes across the desk and buck it straight to region and they'll do the same thing.  (mind you, I'm not saying Idaho or RMR is that way, I just use "Idaho" as my "example wing, other than my own, 1 ea."  Apologies to those from Idaho who might be offended. I'll buy more potatoes as penance..)

I know for a fact that promotions to Lt Col in my former region have additional requirements above those found in CAPR 35-5.  Wanna make Lt Col? You better include your CAP resume with that CAPF 2, along with evidence that you're performing in a role or roles commensurate with that of a Lt Col.  None of this "I've been a squadron commander for 12 years,  took SOS by correspondence, and yes, I went to conferences and no, I didn't do anything but sit in the back of the room with my hands folded..." stuff. 

My wing would not approve professional appointment or mission-related skills promotions for individuals who were not serving in a capacity to use the qualification for which they were being appointed. Period.  Want a promotion to Captain based on your qualifications as an educator? Better be in that AEO slot.   You're a doctor and want to be a Captain? Health Services officer for you, sir!

Now, honestly, if a helicopter CFI walked in my squadron's door,  as a unit commander I'd have to tell him that he's likely getting 2Lt, or maybe 1Lt if the stars line up.  I *might* be able to get him 2Lt right away versus waiting 6 mo, or even 1Lt if he can use some of his CFI-ish skillz to contribute to the unit's mission (even a helicopter CFI can be beneficial, but I'm with most folks that since CAP doesn't have rotary wing, his helicopter CFI qual is essentially a moot point.).   Glider CFI?  Yeah, we can work with that.  ATP?  Sure, CAP doesn't have transport category aircraft, as previously mentioned.  But ATP is a superset of regular fixed-wing pilot quals.  For the most part, an ATP has skills that have direct correlation to CAP's missions, and with little or no airframe checkout, depending on his background, he can probably step right in the CAP cockpit and start putting time on aircraft and contributing to the mission.    A helicopter-only pilot, CFI or not, can't exactly do that, now, can he?

Those are the breaks. If the guy got 1Lt (and in less than 18 months from date of join) then chalk it up as a "Hey, guy got a break" and drive on.

[Eclipse]

Salient points as always Mr. N.

And before anyone starts gnashing teeth about CAP-specific uneven-ness, please find me a military-service, government agency, or corporation of any meaningful size that doesn't have favorites and designated fast-trackers.

Until every decision is made based purely on objective criteria (not likely in systems which involves human beings), there will always be some freedom to value "x" over "y" and give benefit for "q", and even in situations that are 100% objective, there is always the option to simply not address the request.

[AirAux]

Wow, is it no wonder that we don't have Army Aviator rotor types lining up to join and assist us.  I could sure use a handful to help me with my squadron.  Their experience and motivational affect on the cadets would be worth captain alone.  And like the man said above, how many ATP missions do we have.  Yeah, I have signed up so many Delta Captains and then said, maybe six months from now I will see about putting you in for Captain..  Get over yourselves..  This isn't the real military and we don't get real pay..  Give them the bling and hope they work out.  If they don't they will drop off the rolls anyhow.  Talk about a bunch of Grinches..  Make it as hard as possible and then wonder why our organization doesn't grow.. This is a side show to real life.  People take crap all day at work, lighten up..  Make it fun for all.  And don't even start on the seriousness of the mission.  When the chips are down, we all respond that is what we do best.. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Army Aviators don't join because they wouldn't get advanced grade in CAP? Doubtful. If they are in it for the grade, does that really mean they are helping out?

[AirAux]

No, they might not join if they felt insulted or slighted.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they would help out. 

[RiverAux]

If all he had was a helicopter pilot license then no promotion for him.  He would just be another of the many CAP members who have skills applicable to CAP that are not recognized as being valuable enough to warrant quick promotions.  Hence, another good reason for dropping the system entirely and treating everyone that joins CAP the same way no matter what their background. 

[Short Field]

You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.

So your recommendation is that we just start promoting everyone to Captain as soon as they join since everyone has something to contribute or teach the other members? 

[Eclipse]

No, they might not join if they felt insulted or slighted.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they would help out.

It has everything to do with what they have to offer.

In case you missed it, we don't have any helicopters, so their direct, hot-poop, I will never be 1/2 as cool as they are, skill falls into the same space as medical professionals, carpet installers, and your cable guy.  Not directly relevant to CAP.  That's not a personal attack, that is a simple fact of life.

Now, their military experience and skill, might have relevance. I say might because not everyone wearing a military uniform is necessarily a good leader, instructor, or even a role model.   I've known a fair number of military aviators and many are just as focused on flying-only
as their civilian counterparts.  They know and are good at their jobs, but could care less about anything military that doesn't get or keep them in the air.  I have more than once been asked to assist some with configuring their blues because they had to attend a CoC or funeral and it had been a decade since they had even looked at them.

I don't think twice about equivalent grade for active and former military.  If the DOD says they are track worthy, so be it, and there are now avenues for enlisted and warrants to get what CAP considers equivalent grade based solely on that basis.

If you're bringing in a helo driver to be a leadership officer and participate actively in the cadet program, you've got my attention, but no bling until after we see some CAP performance, same as any new member.  That is an easy case to make with a few months of effort and service.

Missed here by many is that military officers and enlisted are not handed their grade on signing.  Even Dr's and lawyers, etc., have to go to "salutin' school".  Handing out the bling for no effort because you want to appease someone who probably doesn't really meet the requirements, is insulting to both them and other members, and will at some point come out when they finally get around to reading the regs and see they basically got a pass - nothing motivates a member like being handed something they didn't really earn.

This is a side show to real life.  People take crap all day at work, lighten up..  Make it fun for all.  And don't even start on the seriousness of the mission.  When the chips are down, we all respond that is what we do best..

Maybe for you, but many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they
can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated.

[Short Field]

... many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated.

:clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:

[AirAux]

"Maybe for you, but many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated."

Sorry Eclipse, I gotta call you on that one, There is no way you spend 40 hours a week on CAP, unless you count your hours on CapTalk.  I have over 20 years in CAP and over 10 of those are in command positions.  I am assuming that you have a real 40 hour per week job, which is standard in this country.  If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy. 

[NIN]

If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy.

I had one of those once. It lasted 28 years. See sig.

[spacecommand]

I hardly consider my work in CAP as a "side show" to "real life" as you may call it, no matter how many hours I spend on a paid job.