Mission Related Promotion for a Rotary Wing Pilot

[Flying Pig]

I would imagine or hope HI Wing would have to authorize him to provide ground instruction.  If I am an AGI, can I, in an official capacity, provide instruction to CAP pilots?  I don't believe I can.  CAP CFIs dont just start teaching immediately, they need to attend check pilot school first and pass a checkride with a CAP Check Pilot.  Can ground instructors just walk into CAP and start instructing ground day 1?

[Flying Pig]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

So again, we are back to the argument that he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  So another question, does this guy really care either way?

So, are Form 5 and Form 91 the only way someone can contribute to CAP's mission?  Is that all the training a CAP member needs is that training necessary to pass a Form 5 or Form 91.

Let's say you have an MP who doesn't have an IR.  Why couldn't the designated CFII-RH do ground school with him to get him ready for the written, while a CFII handles the flight portion of the training. Would that CFII-RH (acting as an instrument ground isntructor) not be contributing his skills to a CAP mission and increasing the skills and proficiency of a MP?  If such ground instruction is not useful, why does CAPR 35-5 4-3 (Figure 6) specify them as eligible for Mission Skills promotion?

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

[JeffDG]

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

AGI only gets him 1st Lt.  IGI gets him Capt.

I think any CFII can teach instrument ground...is the Instrument Knowledge exam different for different category/class?  I think if you want to do ground simulator, then it might be different, but the knowledge exam stuff is the same for RH and ASEL, IIRC.

Oh, and you don't need any pilot certificate at all to get an BGI, AGI or IGI.

[Flying Pig]

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

AGI only gets him 1st Lt.  IGI gets him Capt.

Ahhh, copy that.

I think any CFII can teach instrument ground...is the Instrument Knowledge exam different for different category/class?  I think if you want to do ground simulator, then it might be different, but the knowledge exam stuff is the same for RH and ASEL, IIRC.

Oh, and you don't need any pilot certificate at all to get an BGI, AGI or IGI.

Knew that.  Weird though.

Kinda screwed up the quote thing, but oh well.  So another question, I know we give promotions to IGIs, BGIs and AGIs, but does CAP use them in an official capacity?  Ever?  I know of no CAP Ground Instructors that have any approval to teach CAP ground courses.

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.  Seriously, you can get all three by memorizing the test questions in a book on your own.  No experience needed. I could give my non-pilot wife the Instrument Rating test guide and in a month she would be an IGI.  It would be like learning SWAT tactics from a guy who learned it all online.

[Short Field]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.
Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach... 

I'd give him Capt.

Since his commander, whom I presume has more knowledge that I do regarding his contributions to his unit and CAP, has made such a certification, there is evidence that the member is supporting a CAP mission.

Sorry - my mistake if I considered giving a Aerospace Education Officer based promotion to Captain to a non-CAP CFI who shows no CAPR 35-5 qualifications for the promotion as a GIVE.  Granted I don't know what his squadron commander is thinking - but I know too many squadron commanders who studiously avoid reading any CAP Regulation to blindly trust their decisions and certifications.    An assertion is not evidence.

A CFI requires a lot of training, but by itself, it does not meet the following requirements required for a AE promotion to Captain:
     -- a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor, or other faculty member for a minimum of five years
     -- a graduate of a recognized college or university
     -- certified by the state department of education or a university professor or other faculty member. 

[JeffDG]

A CFI requires a lot of training, but by itself, it does not meet the following requirements required for a AE promotion to Captain:
     -- a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor, or other faculty member for a minimum of five years
     -- a graduate of a recognized college or university
     -- certified by the state department of education or a university professor or other faculty member.

Sure, but if you grant a promotion based on mission skills as a CFI, the reg only requires that the skills be used for a CAP mission.  Traditionally, CFI skills are for check pilots, but there's no restriction in the regs requiring that that's the only allowable use of those skills.

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

[JeffDG]

Granted I don't know what his squadron commander is thinking - but I know too many squadron commanders who studiously avoid reading any CAP Regulation to blindly trust their decisions and certifications.    An assertion is not evidence.

That's a serious accusation that a squadron commander is ignoring regulations.  Have you addressed this accusation with the Group or Wing IG?  Or is it just bloviating without any evidence?

[Short Field]

That's a serious accusation that a squadron commander is ignoring regulations.  Have you addressed this accusation with the Group or Wing IG?  Or is it just bloviating without any evidence?

I have addressed it many times with both the commanders in question and, when needed, the Wing CC.  And in every case, the squadron commanders corrected their decisions. 

[Short Field]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

[Flying Pig]

C'mon gents.  Lets keep this relevant to a Helicopter-CFII getting a mission based promo.  Legit question and very likely something many other SqCCs may have to deal with. Especially with the economy sucking.  Young CFIs everywhere are looking for ways to stay active.  I have a large flight school in my town and have had a few drop in, but none ever joined once they found out we were not just going to toss them the keys.

So, can a Helicopter CFI provide ground to an airplane pilot for the purposes of a rating, written exam or BFR?

However, on a side note, I must find a way to use "bloviate" in a sentence this week.

[JeffDG]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

Because you were going from "He's supporting the AE mission, so he must meet the AE quals for promotion!"

Let's say I were a CFII, but because of some medical issues, I couldn't fly anymore.  Now, I'm not a professional educator. 

I join CAP and spend 3 days every week volunteering on behalf of CAP at schools, using the knowledge I gained as a CFII to teach kids about aerospace.

So:
Looking at 35-5, 4-2(d):  Am I contributing my special skills to a CAP mission?  You're [darn] right I am.
4-3 and Figure 6 do not specify what CAP mission I'm supporting, do they?

In that case, I meet all the quals for promotion to Capt., regardless of the fact that I never set foot in a plane as a Form 5/Form 91 check pilot at all.  I am a CFII and I am supporting the mission of CAP.

On the other hand, if I were a teacher for 5 years, but only a Private Pilot, and put most of my efforts into being a Mission Pilot, I would still be eligible to be a Capt. under the AE mission skillset, even though my pilot quals only entitle me to 2d Lt.

[Flying Pig]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

Because you were going from "He's supporting the AE mission, so he must meet the AE quals for promotion!"

Let's say I were a CFII, but because of some medical issues, I couldn't fly anymore.  Now, I'm not a professional educator. 

I join CAP and spend 3 days every week volunteering on behalf of CAP at schools, using the knowledge I gained as a CFII to teach kids about aerospace.

So:
Looking at 35-5, 4-2(d):  Am I contributing my special skills to a CAP mission?  You're [darn] right I am.
4-3 and Figure 6 do not specify what CAP mission I'm supporting, do they?

In that case, I meet all the quals for promotion to Capt., regardless of the fact that I never set foot in a plane as a Form 5/Form 91 check pilot at all.  I am a CFII and I am supporting the mission of CAP.

On the other hand, if I were a teacher for 5 years, but only a Private Pilot, and put most of my efforts into being a Mission Pilot, I would still be eligible to be a Capt. under the AE mission skillset, even though my pilot quals only entitle me to 2d Lt.

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

[JeffDG]

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

That may well be, but it's not what the regulation says.  If you have the certification, and you are using the skills thus gained to benefit a CAP mission, and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion (as determined by the unit commander), then you should receive the promotion.

[Flying Pig]

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

That may well be, but it's not what the regulation says.  If you have the certification, and you are using the skills thus gained to benefit a CAP mission, and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion (as determined by the unit commander), then you should receive the promotion.

I wonder if it was written vaguely on purpose or an oversight.  But I would say if it was written vague on purpose, NHQ would be the ultimate deciding authority, not the SqCC.  I will say, I want to be kept up to speed on how it develops because it sets a precedent for future members who fit this mold.

In a legal sense, I would look to the intent of the reg.  I think the intent to get an advanced mission related skill promotion as a CFI, means that you need to performing as a CAP CFI.  Just like an attorney or MD needs to be a legal officer or Medical Officer to rate the promotion or a teacher needs to be an AEO to get the advanced promotion.  You dont get it just because you happen to be a teacher, lawyer or MD.  You have to use it.  A CFI is, or should be no different. 

What about a non-current CFII?  Oh NO!!!  Stop the madness!!!

[Short Field]

Just like an attorney or MD needs to be a legal officer or Medical Officer to rate the promotion or a teacher needs to be an AEO to get the advanced promotion.  You dont get it just because you happen to be a teacher, lawyer or MD.  You have to use it.  A CFI is, or should be no different. 

I agree but then I view CAP service as supporting and accomplishing a mission and not about how fast I can get promoted on a technicality.   If you keep lowering the bar, then "supporting the CAP mission" eventually becomes just paying your dues and wearing your uniform on base to get your haircuts at a reduced rate.  After all, it is educating people about CAP when they see you and recruiting people when they ask what your uniform is all about...

[bosshawk]

Has anyone looked at the reg concerning rank based on military rank?  It seems to me that this guy may have been promoted to 1st Lt as a result of his being an E-6 in the RM.  I don't have the reg right in front of me and am too lazy to look it up. YMMV.

[ßτε]

Has anyone looked at the reg concerning rank based on military rank?  It seems to me that this guy may have been promoted to 1st Lt as a result of his being an E-6 in the RM.  I don't have the reg right in front of me and am too lazy to look it up. YMMV.

No. E-7 gives 2d Lt, E-8 gives 1st Lt, and E-9 gives Capt.

[bosshawk]

OK, thanks.  Just saw that nobody had brought up the possibility.  Everyone seemed to be chipping their teeth on the various aspects of what a CFI means and does.

[ZigZag911]

Would it be all that complicated for a RW pilot to transition to fixed wing?

My understanding was that the reverse route was more difficult.

[Flying Pig]

I did it.  All it takes is money.  No harder either way.

My order....

Private Glider
Private SEL
Private Helo (add-on)
Instrument SEL
Commercial SEL
Commercial Helo (add-on)
Now doing CFI Helo and SEL at the same time.  Using my CFI SEL as my initial.