Mission Related Promotion for a Rotary Wing Pilot

[AirDX]

Question: does anyone out there have experience with mission-related promotions for non-fixed wing pilots?

Situation: We had a guy join the squadron, he's an E-6 in the Navy Reserve.  When he left AD, he used his GI Bill to take helicopter training.  He is a commercial/CFII in helicopters only, no fixed-wing ratings.  He flew professionally, then got laid off from his helo flying job, now he's a contractor for the Navy.

Based on 35-5, which does not say anything about fixed-wing or anything else, we put him in for a mission-related promotion to captain.  Somewhere between here and NHQ, it got knocked down to 1LT.  I haven't inquired yet who knocked it down or why, but I'm just wondering if there have been similar experiences out there, either positive or negative.  He's a good dude, and if I can get him captain, I will.

Comments and experiences?

[PHall]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

Which is probably why it got bumped down and it's lucky it got anything at all.

[AirDX]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

As many as we have transport category aircraft, yet we give advanced grade for an ATP. 

Again.... the reg does not specify fixed-wing, rotary wing, glider, balloon, etc.  And if he gets *some* credit for rotary wing ratings, why not all?  I know I have to ask this question up the chain, and I will, but I was hoping for some direct experience with this sort of thing, not half-baked comments.

Personally I see anyone with his level of aeronautical knowledge as more than able to directly benefit our missions. 

[a2capt]

He gets some credit probably for the pilot license, but mission related promotions are supposed to mean using that experience, degree, license, whatever, in a capacity within CAP.

Pilots can get 2Lt, perhaps the higher ratings get you more 1 time promotions. Such as an instrument rating, you can get 1Lt, CFI .. etc.. Capt.  provided you've applied toward using them within CAP.

How many helicopters do we have?

Can you do a Form 5 in a helicopter? Give O-Rides?

We've had to deal with that in the distant past. "I'm a pilot, I read I can get promoted instantly" and they act surprised when they are asked, "where's your Form 5?" Oh, you mean I have to actually fly for CAP?"

[Flying Pig]

As a Commercial Helo pilot I would put him in for the 2Lt, but thats it.  He's lucky he got 1Lt in my book.  Me loves them helicopters.....but its not a skill related to CAP.  Quite honestly, as far as CAP is concerned, he may as well not even have a license.  And thats coming from an employed Commercial helicopter pilot.
Mission related skill means "Mission Related Skill".  As it is, I don't give new member pilots their mission related promotion until after they complete a Form 5.   My rule.  Because if you join and never use it, it's not a skill.
I would argue regarding his aeronautical knowledge being a benefit to CAPs mission as only being a helo driver.  Even being a CFII-H does nothing for CAP because hes a helo CFII.  "Mission Related Skill".  I have several member with mission and professional advanced promotions. If it's not a direct benefit to CAPs mission I don't see how you can justify it.  I would say as a SqCC myself, CAP did right by 1Lt.  They recognized his education but stopped short of the full boat.  Yes the regs do not discriminate help, fixed wing etc.  But it's clarified in the definition of "mission related skill".

[JeffDG]

As a CFII-H, he has the same quals for ground instruction as a IGI, and they're eligible for Captain.

[Larry Mangum]

They are only eligible for promotion to Captain, IF they are using the skills for CAP. So if you are a CFI and not utilizing your skills either through being a check airman or as an instructor, then you are not eligible for the rank.

[EMT-83]

A quick read of 35-5 explains Mission Related Skills promotions:

"In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission."

Commanders need to determine whether members meet the requirement of contributing those skills, not merely having them. For example, I've got an instrument rated pilot that hasn't gotten around to obtaining his CAP IFR rating, so he's still a second lieutenant as a VFR pilot. Yes, he has the skills, but he's not contributing them to the CAP mission.

[JeffDG]

They are only eligible for promotion to Captain, IF they are using the skills for CAP. So if you are a CFI and not utilizing your skills either through being a check airman or as an instructor, then you are not eligible for the rank.

How about if this CFII-RH were to offer to provide an Instrument Ground School for pilots in his squadron?  Then he would, in essence, be providing the same mission skills as an IGI can provide, and IGIs are eligible for Mission Skill promotion to Captain.

(Note, I have no personal knowledge of the situation, and am commenting solely hypothetically)

[Eclipse]

How many times?  Once?  Annually?  Every time he wants to be promoted?  He may be externally qualified as an instructor but he may be the worst teacher ever, and since he doesn't do fixed wing, he's not going to be in the form 5 club so how will his skills be vetted?

We don't do rotor any more than we do hovercraft.  Bending over backwards to give someone tracks may just hack off the others in the unit.
He got 1st Lt.  That's plenty for a new member who doesn't have a directly relate-able mission skill, and recognizes his military service.

[JeffDG]

How many times?  Once?  Annually?  Every time he wants to be promoted?  He may be externally qualified as an instructor but he may be the worst teacher ever, and since he doesn't do fixed wing, he's not going to be in the form 5 club so how will his skills be vetted?

We don't do rotor any more than we do hovercraft.  Bending over backwards to give someone tracks may just hack off the others in the unit.
He got 1st Lt.  That's plenty for a new member who doesn't have a directly relate-able mission skill, and recognizes his military service.

How then would you evaluate someone who was simply an IGI and not a pilot of any kind?

[Thrashed]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

[vento]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

Agreed, only IF he can do the job of an educator. It would be a good idea to wait for at least 6 months to observe and validate the qual of the new member for any promotions above 2nd Lt. Otherwise, we are not only doing a diservice to the new member, but also a diservice to existing members.

[Short Field]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE. 

[JeffDG]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE.

By contrast, there's no evidence he's not contributing either.

[EMT-83]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

Let's see what 35-5 says about Aerospace Education Officer promotions:

"A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member."

[Flying Pig]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  They would however get their promo for having a Commercial/Instrument after they complete a CAP Form 5.  But nothing for being a CFI.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

Soooooo, to make this more personal and relevant, I have a new pilot in my unit who is a PPL-RH and a PPL-Airplane but no HP endorsement.  Until he gets his HP endorsement, he cant fly anything in CAWG, so he will stay a SM until he gets his HP and his Form 5 done.  Again, for me, no mission related promo because he has no Mission Related Skill that CAP can use......yet.  When he does, he will be rewarded properly.  And you know what?  Hes cool with it.

So again, we are back to the argument that as a SqCC, I think he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  But, he's your guy not mine.
So another question, does this guy really care either way?  Fight for your guy, Im all for that, but sometimes you need to ask yourself who this is really more important to.  You or him?

[JeffDG]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

So again, we are back to the argument that he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  So another question, does this guy really care either way?

So, are Form 5 and Form 91 the only way someone can contribute to CAP's mission?  Is that all the training a CAP member needs is that training necessary to pass a Form 5 or Form 91.

Let's say you have an MP who doesn't have an IR.  Why couldn't the designated CFII-RH do ground school with him to get him ready for the written, while a CFII handles the flight portion of the training.  Would that CFII-RH (acting as an instrument ground isntructor) not be contributing his skills to a CAP mission and increasing the skills and proficiency of a MP?  If such ground instruction is not useful, why does CAPR 35-5 4-3 (Figure 6) specify them as eligible for Mission Skills promotion?

[JeffDG]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE.

Actually, yes there is evidence that he's supporting CAP's mission:  His commander submitted a CAPF2.  CAPR 35-5, Section D:  4-2-d states that "The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

Since his commander, whom I presume has more knowledge that I do regarding his contributions to his unit and CAP, has made such a certification, there is evidence that the member is supporting a CAP mission.

[Flying Pig]

I would imagine or hope HI Wing would have to authorize him to provide ground instruction.  If I am an AGI, can I, in an official capacity, provide instruction to CAP pilots?  I don't believe I can.  CAP CFIs dont just start teaching immediately, they need to attend check pilot school first and pass a checkride with a CAP Check Pilot.  Can ground instructors just walk into CAP and start instructing ground day 1?

[Flying Pig]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

So again, we are back to the argument that he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  So another question, does this guy really care either way?

So, are Form 5 and Form 91 the only way someone can contribute to CAP's mission?  Is that all the training a CAP member needs is that training necessary to pass a Form 5 or Form 91.

Let's say you have an MP who doesn't have an IR.  Why couldn't the designated CFII-RH do ground school with him to get him ready for the written, while a CFII handles the flight portion of the training. Would that CFII-RH (acting as an instrument ground isntructor) not be contributing his skills to a CAP mission and increasing the skills and proficiency of a MP?  If such ground instruction is not useful, why does CAPR 35-5 4-3 (Figure 6) specify them as eligible for Mission Skills promotion?

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

[JeffDG]

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

AGI only gets him 1st Lt.  IGI gets him Capt.

I think any CFII can teach instrument ground...is the Instrument Knowledge exam different for different category/class?  I think if you want to do ground simulator, then it might be different, but the knowledge exam stuff is the same for RH and ASEL, IIRC.

Oh, and you don't need any pilot certificate at all to get an BGI, AGI or IGI.

[Flying Pig]

If the MP doesnt have an instrument rating, why does he need an IGI?  A CFI-RH cant do ground for an airplane pilot. (Or am I wrong?)  Thats why I say if its that important, have the guy do his AGI test real quick and this all becomes a dead issue. 

AGI only gets him 1st Lt.  IGI gets him Capt.

Ahhh, copy that.

I think any CFII can teach instrument ground...is the Instrument Knowledge exam different for different category/class?  I think if you want to do ground simulator, then it might be different, but the knowledge exam stuff is the same for RH and ASEL, IIRC.

Oh, and you don't need any pilot certificate at all to get an BGI, AGI or IGI.

Knew that.  Weird though.

Kinda screwed up the quote thing, but oh well.  So another question, I know we give promotions to IGIs, BGIs and AGIs, but does CAP use them in an official capacity?  Ever?  I know of no CAP Ground Instructors that have any approval to teach CAP ground courses.

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.  Seriously, you can get all three by memorizing the test questions in a book on your own.  No experience needed. I could give my non-pilot wife the Instrument Rating test guide and in a month she would be an IGI.  It would be like learning SWAT tactics from a guy who learned it all online.

[Short Field]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.
Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach... 

I'd give him Capt.

Since his commander, whom I presume has more knowledge that I do regarding his contributions to his unit and CAP, has made such a certification, there is evidence that the member is supporting a CAP mission.

Sorry - my mistake if I considered giving a Aerospace Education Officer based promotion to Captain to a non-CAP CFI who shows no CAPR 35-5 qualifications for the promotion as a GIVE.  Granted I don't know what his squadron commander is thinking - but I know too many squadron commanders who studiously avoid reading any CAP Regulation to blindly trust their decisions and certifications.    An assertion is not evidence.

A CFI requires a lot of training, but by itself, it does not meet the following requirements required for a AE promotion to Captain:
     -- a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor, or other faculty member for a minimum of five years
     -- a graduate of a recognized college or university
     -- certified by the state department of education or a university professor or other faculty member. 

[JeffDG]

A CFI requires a lot of training, but by itself, it does not meet the following requirements required for a AE promotion to Captain:
     -- a teacher, counselor, school administrator, college or university professor, or other faculty member for a minimum of five years
     -- a graduate of a recognized college or university
     -- certified by the state department of education or a university professor or other faculty member.

Sure, but if you grant a promotion based on mission skills as a CFI, the reg only requires that the skills be used for a CAP mission.  Traditionally, CFI skills are for check pilots, but there's no restriction in the regs requiring that that's the only allowable use of those skills.

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

[JeffDG]

Granted I don't know what his squadron commander is thinking - but I know too many squadron commanders who studiously avoid reading any CAP Regulation to blindly trust their decisions and certifications.    An assertion is not evidence.

That's a serious accusation that a squadron commander is ignoring regulations.  Have you addressed this accusation with the Group or Wing IG?  Or is it just bloviating without any evidence?

[Short Field]

That's a serious accusation that a squadron commander is ignoring regulations.  Have you addressed this accusation with the Group or Wing IG?  Or is it just bloviating without any evidence?

I have addressed it many times with both the commanders in question and, when needed, the Wing CC.  And in every case, the squadron commanders corrected their decisions. 

[Short Field]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

[Flying Pig]

C'mon gents.  Lets keep this relevant to a Helicopter-CFII getting a mission based promo.  Legit question and very likely something many other SqCCs may have to deal with. Especially with the economy sucking.  Young CFIs everywhere are looking for ways to stay active.  I have a large flight school in my town and have had a few drop in, but none ever joined once they found out we were not just going to toss them the keys.

So, can a Helicopter CFI provide ground to an airplane pilot for the purposes of a rating, written exam or BFR?

However, on a side note, I must find a way to use "bloviate" in a sentence this week.

[JeffDG]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

Because you were going from "He's supporting the AE mission, so he must meet the AE quals for promotion!"

Let's say I were a CFII, but because of some medical issues, I couldn't fly anymore.  Now, I'm not a professional educator. 

I join CAP and spend 3 days every week volunteering on behalf of CAP at schools, using the knowledge I gained as a CFII to teach kids about aerospace.

So:
Looking at 35-5, 4-2(d):  Am I contributing my special skills to a CAP mission?  You're [darn] right I am.
4-3 and Figure 6 do not specify what CAP mission I'm supporting, do they?

In that case, I meet all the quals for promotion to Capt., regardless of the fact that I never set foot in a plane as a Form 5/Form 91 check pilot at all.  I am a CFII and I am supporting the mission of CAP.

On the other hand, if I were a teacher for 5 years, but only a Private Pilot, and put most of my efforts into being a Mission Pilot, I would still be eligible to be a Capt. under the AE mission skillset, even though my pilot quals only entitle me to 2d Lt.

[Flying Pig]

The AE skills are a whole other category of qualifications, and not relevant to giving a promotion based on a CFI/CFII rating.

Then why were YOU taking me to task for claiming it was not relevant and was a GIVE?

blo·vi·ate
vi \ˈblō-vē-ˌāt\
blo·vi·at·edblo·vi·at·ing
Definition of BLOVIATE
: to speak or write verbosely and windily

Because you were going from "He's supporting the AE mission, so he must meet the AE quals for promotion!"

Let's say I were a CFII, but because of some medical issues, I couldn't fly anymore.  Now, I'm not a professional educator. 

I join CAP and spend 3 days every week volunteering on behalf of CAP at schools, using the knowledge I gained as a CFII to teach kids about aerospace.

So:
Looking at 35-5, 4-2(d):  Am I contributing my special skills to a CAP mission?  You're [darn] right I am.
4-3 and Figure 6 do not specify what CAP mission I'm supporting, do they?

In that case, I meet all the quals for promotion to Capt., regardless of the fact that I never set foot in a plane as a Form 5/Form 91 check pilot at all.  I am a CFII and I am supporting the mission of CAP.

On the other hand, if I were a teacher for 5 years, but only a Private Pilot, and put most of my efforts into being a Mission Pilot, I would still be eligible to be a Capt. under the AE mission skillset, even though my pilot quals only entitle me to 2d Lt.

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

[JeffDG]

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

That may well be, but it's not what the regulation says.  If you have the certification, and you are using the skills thus gained to benefit a CAP mission, and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion (as determined by the unit commander), then you should receive the promotion.

[Flying Pig]

But to play devils advocate here, you dont need to be a CFII to do any of that. You dont even need to be an AE officer. The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

That may well be, but it's not what the regulation says.  If you have the certification, and you are using the skills thus gained to benefit a CAP mission, and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion (as determined by the unit commander), then you should receive the promotion.

I wonder if it was written vaguely on purpose or an oversight.  But I would say if it was written vague on purpose, NHQ would be the ultimate deciding authority, not the SqCC.  I will say, I want to be kept up to speed on how it develops because it sets a precedent for future members who fit this mold.

In a legal sense, I would look to the intent of the reg.  I think the intent to get an advanced mission related skill promotion as a CFI, means that you need to performing as a CAP CFI.  Just like an attorney or MD needs to be a legal officer or Medical Officer to rate the promotion or a teacher needs to be an AEO to get the advanced promotion.  You dont get it just because you happen to be a teacher, lawyer or MD.  You have to use it.  A CFI is, or should be no different. 

What about a non-current CFII?  Oh NO!!!  Stop the madness!!!

[Short Field]

Just like an attorney or MD needs to be a legal officer or Medical Officer to rate the promotion or a teacher needs to be an AEO to get the advanced promotion.  You dont get it just because you happen to be a teacher, lawyer or MD.  You have to use it.  A CFI is, or should be no different. 

I agree but then I view CAP service as supporting and accomplishing a mission and not about how fast I can get promoted on a technicality.   If you keep lowering the bar, then "supporting the CAP mission" eventually becomes just paying your dues and wearing your uniform on base to get your haircuts at a reduced rate.  After all, it is educating people about CAP when they see you and recruiting people when they ask what your uniform is all about...

[bosshawk]

Has anyone looked at the reg concerning rank based on military rank?  It seems to me that this guy may have been promoted to 1st Lt as a result of his being an E-6 in the RM.  I don't have the reg right in front of me and am too lazy to look it up. YMMV.

[ßτε]

Has anyone looked at the reg concerning rank based on military rank?  It seems to me that this guy may have been promoted to 1st Lt as a result of his being an E-6 in the RM.  I don't have the reg right in front of me and am too lazy to look it up. YMMV.

No. E-7 gives 2d Lt, E-8 gives 1st Lt, and E-9 gives Capt.

[bosshawk]

OK, thanks.  Just saw that nobody had brought up the possibility.  Everyone seemed to be chipping their teeth on the various aspects of what a CFI means and does.

[ZigZag911]

Would it be all that complicated for a RW pilot to transition to fixed wing?

My understanding was that the reverse route was more difficult.

[Flying Pig]

I did it.  All it takes is money.  No harder either way.

My order....

Private Glider
Private SEL
Private Helo (add-on)
Instrument SEL
Commercial SEL
Commercial Helo (add-on)
Now doing CFI Helo and SEL at the same time.  Using my CFI SEL as my initial.

[AirDX]

The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

Care to show me that one in a reg?

As far as I'm concerned some one contributing to any one or all of the CAP's three missions is using their knowledge and skills to benefit CAP.  You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.   

[Flying Pig]

The purpose of a CFI getting an advanced promotion is that they will hopefully become active CAP CFIs.  Something CAP is in grossly short supply of.

Care to show me that one in a reg?

As far as I'm concerned some one contributing to any one or all of the CAP's three missions is using their knowledge and skills to benefit CAP.  You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.

Hence the word "intent"  but I also stated NHQ has the final say. Anyone can teach cadets a class.  You dont have to be a CFI to teach aerospace, only to teach it for the purposes of a checkride.  Again, but to be a CAP CFI takes more than just having any CFI rating.  Then I say heck, lets make Capt the entry level grade if all you have to do in contribute.

[AirDX]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.

That's extraordinarily narrow-minded.  One of the best classes I ever went through was a Northwest Airlines CRM class - taught by a flight attendant.

[Flying Pig]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave.

That's extraordinarily narrow-minded.  One of the best classes I ever went through was a Northwest Airlines CRM class - taught by a flight attendant.

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

[AirDX]

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

Ho hum.  I didn't think I needed to point out that I was talking about FAA-required, FAA-approved, FAA-monitored aviation-related training required to ply one's trade in the industry.  Please save the snide remarks for someone else, and sharpen the point on your ego elsewhere.

[EMT-83]

I don't agree that a Mission Related Skill promotion is appropriate in this situation, and wouldn't have initiated one. That's just my opinion, and you know what they say about everyone having an opinion. 

However, if the information becomes available, I would be very interested in learning how NHQ (or Wing, or whoever) arrived at the grade of first lieutenant.

[Flying Pig]

This training was towards a rating?  Seriously dude,   I didn't think I needed to point out that I wasn't referring to any and every class I might attend throughout the course of my life.  I once sat in a class on how to live debt free.  That guy wasnt a AGI either.  Great class.

Ho hum.  I didn't think I needed to point out that I was talking about FAA-required, FAA-approved, FAA-monitored aviation-related training required to ply one's trade in the industry.  Please save the snide remarks for someone else, and sharpen the point on your ego elsewhere.

  Roger that.  You wont hear any argument from me that my ego is about as sharp is it needs to be.  Good luck with your member.

[JeffDG]

Seriously, if I was in a class being taught by a non-pilot AGI, BGI or IGI I would probably leave. 

I went to a class once on communications taught by an IGI who wasn't a pilot.  He was a controller and knew the nuances of ATC communications better than any CFI I've ever met.  If you wanna leave, feel free, more room for those who want to learn.

[NIN]

Guys, I read the start of this thread, then came back to the end of it. Whew.

(I have deliberately left out the middle, and I'm probably better off for it)

Having been a squadron commander, and a wing staff officer multiple times, in multiple wings, I can safely say that promotion standards such as those for advanced promotions based on missing skills or professional qualifications are, uh, how can I put this?  "Unevenly applied" would be probably the best way I can say it.   Heck, even the standards for Duty Performance promotions in some wings (*cough* New York) were, at one time, far, far more stringent than the nationally mandated standards found in the reg.

What does that mean?  That means that a squadron commander in CA might know that his approving authority for mission related skills and professional appointment promotions won't sign off on one of these promotions without a demonstrated application of said qualification to the CAP mission. A _direct_ application, not a perceived or implied one.  (note: I remember that 35-5 even says this, that doesn't mean that every echelon adheres to it)

Likewise, a unit commander in, say, Idaho, might know that his wing will sign anything that comes across the desk and buck it straight to region and they'll do the same thing.  (mind you, I'm not saying Idaho or RMR is that way, I just use "Idaho" as my "example wing, other than my own, 1 ea."  Apologies to those from Idaho who might be offended. I'll buy more potatoes as penance..)

I know for a fact that promotions to Lt Col in my former region have additional requirements above those found in CAPR 35-5.  Wanna make Lt Col? You better include your CAP resume with that CAPF 2, along with evidence that you're performing in a role or roles commensurate with that of a Lt Col.  None of this "I've been a squadron commander for 12 years,  took SOS by correspondence, and yes, I went to conferences and no, I didn't do anything but sit in the back of the room with my hands folded..." stuff. 

My wing would not approve professional appointment or mission-related skills promotions for individuals who were not serving in a capacity to use the qualification for which they were being appointed. Period.  Want a promotion to Captain based on your qualifications as an educator? Better be in that AEO slot.   You're a doctor and want to be a Captain? Health Services officer for you, sir!

Now, honestly, if a helicopter CFI walked in my squadron's door,  as a unit commander I'd have to tell him that he's likely getting 2Lt, or maybe 1Lt if the stars line up.  I *might* be able to get him 2Lt right away versus waiting 6 mo, or even 1Lt if he can use some of his CFI-ish skillz to contribute to the unit's mission (even a helicopter CFI can be beneficial, but I'm with most folks that since CAP doesn't have rotary wing, his helicopter CFI qual is essentially a moot point.).   Glider CFI?  Yeah, we can work with that.  ATP?  Sure, CAP doesn't have transport category aircraft, as previously mentioned.  But ATP is a superset of regular fixed-wing pilot quals.  For the most part, an ATP has skills that have direct correlation to CAP's missions, and with little or no airframe checkout, depending on his background, he can probably step right in the CAP cockpit and start putting time on aircraft and contributing to the mission.    A helicopter-only pilot, CFI or not, can't exactly do that, now, can he?

Those are the breaks. If the guy got 1Lt (and in less than 18 months from date of join) then chalk it up as a "Hey, guy got a break" and drive on.

[Eclipse]

Salient points as always Mr. N.

And before anyone starts gnashing teeth about CAP-specific uneven-ness, please find me a military-service, government agency, or corporation of any meaningful size that doesn't have favorites and designated fast-trackers.

Until every decision is made based purely on objective criteria (not likely in systems which involves human beings), there will always be some freedom to value "x" over "y" and give benefit for "q", and even in situations that are 100% objective, there is always the option to simply not address the request.

[AirAux]

Wow, is it no wonder that we don't have Army Aviator rotor types lining up to join and assist us.  I could sure use a handful to help me with my squadron.  Their experience and motivational affect on the cadets would be worth captain alone.  And like the man said above, how many ATP missions do we have.  Yeah, I have signed up so many Delta Captains and then said, maybe six months from now I will see about putting you in for Captain..  Get over yourselves..  This isn't the real military and we don't get real pay..  Give them the bling and hope they work out.  If they don't they will drop off the rolls anyhow.  Talk about a bunch of Grinches..  Make it as hard as possible and then wonder why our organization doesn't grow.. This is a side show to real life.  People take crap all day at work, lighten up..  Make it fun for all.  And don't even start on the seriousness of the mission.  When the chips are down, we all respond that is what we do best.. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Army Aviators don't join because they wouldn't get advanced grade in CAP? Doubtful. If they are in it for the grade, does that really mean they are helping out?

[AirAux]

No, they might not join if they felt insulted or slighted.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they would help out. 

[RiverAux]

If all he had was a helicopter pilot license then no promotion for him.  He would just be another of the many CAP members who have skills applicable to CAP that are not recognized as being valuable enough to warrant quick promotions.  Hence, another good reason for dropping the system entirely and treating everyone that joins CAP the same way no matter what their background. 

[Short Field]

You are taking an extremely narrow view of what an instructor on any level can do.  Maybe that can't do Form 5 ground, but can they teach cadets? Yes.  Can they teach any number of things to anyone in our squadron? Yes.  That's contributing to the mission.  Everyone contributes.

So your recommendation is that we just start promoting everyone to Captain as soon as they join since everyone has something to contribute or teach the other members? 

[Eclipse]

No, they might not join if they felt insulted or slighted.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they would help out.

It has everything to do with what they have to offer.

In case you missed it, we don't have any helicopters, so their direct, hot-poop, I will never be 1/2 as cool as they are, skill falls into the same space as medical professionals, carpet installers, and your cable guy.  Not directly relevant to CAP.  That's not a personal attack, that is a simple fact of life.

Now, their military experience and skill, might have relevance. I say might because not everyone wearing a military uniform is necessarily a good leader, instructor, or even a role model.   I've known a fair number of military aviators and many are just as focused on flying-only
as their civilian counterparts.  They know and are good at their jobs, but could care less about anything military that doesn't get or keep them in the air.  I have more than once been asked to assist some with configuring their blues because they had to attend a CoC or funeral and it had been a decade since they had even looked at them.

I don't think twice about equivalent grade for active and former military.  If the DOD says they are track worthy, so be it, and there are now avenues for enlisted and warrants to get what CAP considers equivalent grade based solely on that basis.

If you're bringing in a helo driver to be a leadership officer and participate actively in the cadet program, you've got my attention, but no bling until after we see some CAP performance, same as any new member.  That is an easy case to make with a few months of effort and service.

Missed here by many is that military officers and enlisted are not handed their grade on signing.  Even Dr's and lawyers, etc., have to go to "salutin' school".  Handing out the bling for no effort because you want to appease someone who probably doesn't really meet the requirements, is insulting to both them and other members, and will at some point come out when they finally get around to reading the regs and see they basically got a pass - nothing motivates a member like being handed something they didn't really earn.

This is a side show to real life.  People take crap all day at work, lighten up..  Make it fun for all.  And don't even start on the seriousness of the mission.  When the chips are down, we all respond that is what we do best..

Maybe for you, but many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they
can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated.

[Short Field]

... many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated.

:clap:   :clap:   :clap:   :clap:

[AirAux]

"Maybe for you, but many of us invest as much time in CAP as in our full time jobs in order to keep it running for people who feel like they can treat CAP like a hobby and then gripe and moan about how unfairly they are treated."

Sorry Eclipse, I gotta call you on that one, There is no way you spend 40 hours a week on CAP, unless you count your hours on CapTalk.  I have over 20 years in CAP and over 10 of those are in command positions.  I am assuming that you have a real 40 hour per week job, which is standard in this country.  If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy. 

[NIN]

If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy.

I had one of those once. It lasted 28 years. See sig.

[spacecommand]

I hardly consider my work in CAP as a "side show" to "real life" as you may call it, no matter how many hours I spend on a paid job.

[Eclipse]

Sorry Eclipse, I gotta call you on that one, There is no way you spend 40 hours a week on CAP, unless you count your hours on CapTalk.  I have over 20 years in CAP and over 10 of those are in command positions.  I am assuming that you have a real 40 hour per week job, which is standard in this country.  If you are spending anywhere near 40 hours a week on CAP, you have an obsession that probably isn't productive or healthy.

I know plenty of members and a number of commanders who felt they could be effective leaders doing nothing more than participating on meeting nights (or even less) they were wrong.

Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion.

[GTCommando]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

[JeffDG]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

[Larry Mangum]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

If the member in question is actually teaching ground instruction to CAP members then, I would support his promotion to Captain, but only if he is actually doing so. Automatically granting rank to someone because they are a CFI should not be condoned and indeed the regulation shows this.  The problem comes when people try to stretch the reasons for doing so, i.e. he an teach versus actually teaching; when that is done it can be a slap in the face to that member who is not rated and busting his or her butt off to make the unit a success.

[JeffDG]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

If the member in question is actually teaching ground instruction to CAP members then, I would support his promotion to Captain, but only if he is actually doing so. Automatically granting rank to someone because they are a CFI should not be condoned and indeed the regulation shows this.  The problem comes when people try to stretch the reasons for doing so, i.e. he an teach versus actually teaching; when that is done it can be a slap in the face to that member who is not rated and busting his or her butt off to make the unit a success.

With no evidence presented to the contrary, I presume that the individual's unit commander is doing their job, and their certification that the skills are being used in furtherance of a CAP mission is enough for me.

Now, if someone has evidence that the unit cc is pencil whipping such promotions, then that's an entirely different matter, but in the presented situation, no such evidence has been presented beyond "Well, it happens all the time..." which is, IMHO, an attack on the integrity of the unit cc who is making the promotion recommendation, unless there is evidence that that unit cc is doing so.

[GTCommando]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Could you explain the acronyms please? I pulled the regs off the knowledge base, I'm not a pilot, and I have no idea what the acronyms mean.

[JeffDG]

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Could you explain the acronyms please? I pulled the regs off the knowledge base, I'm not a pilot, and I have no idea what the acronyms mean.

Sure...

CFI-Certified Flight Instructor
CFII-Certified Flight Instructor Instrument (can give training for Instrument Instruction)
RH-Rotorcraft Helicopter (shorthand...most of the time you see CFI-A for airplane.  Another you'll see is MEI which is Multi Engine Instructor)
IGI is an Instrument Ground Instructor who can teach you ground school for your IR, and do sim training as well.  The other two ground ones are BGI (Basic Ground Instructor) and AGI (Advanced Ground Instructor)

[AirAux]

PIC = pilot in command
MP = Mission Pilot
CFII-RH = certified flight instrument instructor rotarycraft
IGI = instrument ground instructor

Eclipse,
"Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion."  Come on man, you are attacking my crediblility after you claim that you put 40 hours or more into CAP per week??  Get real..  For all you know, I am the "magic" that makes these things happen.  I'll stand my time against yours any day.. But there is no way on God's liitle green Earth that you put 40 hours a week into CAP outside of Captalk.  You put almost that much time every week into Captalk, so I know it isn't mssion related.. 

[JeffDG]

PIC = pilot in command
MP = Mission Pilot

TMP-Transport Mission Pilot...missed those ones, thanks!

To GTCommando...the FAA tends to breed an alphabet soup of acronyms, as I'm sure reading this you're aware.  Add on the semi-military nature of CAP, and there's a whole lotta TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) to learn!

[vento]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

[vento]

Quote From CAPR 35-5, CAP NCO and Officer Appointments and Promotions:
SECTION D - MISSION RELATED SKILLS

4-1. General. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission.

Quote From CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, rotorcraft, lighter-than-air, experimental, primary category, and home-built aircraft are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Not saying his skills aren't useful, just not in CAP. I won't espouse my opinion on the subject, just the hard facts.

So, by that token, if you acquire PIC time in a homebuilt, it shouldn't count toward your quals for TMP/MP?

Again, a CFII-RH has the same ground instruction privileges as an IGI.  An IGI is can be promoted based on mission-skills to Capt., so why not a CFII-RH?

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

[JeffDG]

Not sure where you get the idea about PIC time. The CAP reg only says that we can't use home-built, rotor craft, etc, etc for missions.

Yes, and the regs also say you only need to be CFI to be eligible (provided you're contributing the skills, performing at an exemplary level worth of promotion, etc) for mission-related promotion to Captain.  It makes no distinction between CFI-A and CFI-RH, or for that matter CFI-LTA-Gas Baloon

[Eclipse]

Eclipse,
"Clearly you are one of those members who believes things like SLS/CLC, Encampments, NCC, TLC, real ES missions that take more than an hour, etc., happens by "magic" and not the brute force efforts of commanders and staff who treat CAP as more than a "side show" or a occasional diversion."  Come on man, you are attacking my crediblility after you claim that you put 40 hours or more into CAP per week??  Get real..  For all you know, I am the "magic" that makes these things happen.  I'll stand my time against yours any day.. But there is no way on God's liitle green Earth that you put 40 hours a week into CAP outside of Captalk.  You put almost that much time every week into Captalk, so I know it isn't mssion related..

So in one message CAP is just a "sideshow" to you, in another you're the magic? Pick one and go with it...

My time on CT has nothing to do with my "real" involvement, and trying to compare the two means you know little about how these forums actually function.  Further, my assertion was that many people spend an equal amount of time or more in CAP than in the regular jobs, if that means 40 hours to you, so be it.  Don't make assumptions regarding what and how people earn their livings, or how long it takes them.

[GTCommando]

To GTCommando...the FAA tends to breed an alphabet soup of acronyms, as I'm sure reading this you're aware.  Add on the semi-military nature of CAP, and there's a whole lotta TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms) to learn!

I hear ya. I'll have been in two years tomorrow, and I'm still getting the hang of TLAs. Then again, as my username implies, I've focused on GSAR, so there's not been much time to learn FAA's jargon, though I want to eventually.

[AirAux]

Eclipse, let me say that I will agree that we both put in an inordinate amount of time into CAP and we both wish others would at least put in 4 hours a week.  Can we agree on that?  As usual in any volunteer organization you have the 10% that do almost all of the work.  I would imagine that most of the people that post regularly on Captalk are probably in that minority.  God only knows what we could do if we could get everyone as inspired as we are about CAP.  Best kept secret in the world..   

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, let me say that I will agree that we both put in an inordinate amount of time into CAP and we both wish others would at least put in 4 hours a week.  Can we agree on that?  As usual in any volunteer organization you have the 10% that do almost all of the work.  I would imagine that most of the people that post regularly on Captalk are probably in that minority.  God only knows what we could do if we could get everyone as inspired as we are about CAP.  Best kept secret in the world..

Agreed.

[spacecommand]

I think it is an attack on the credibility on all volunteers to call CAP a sideshow to real life.  Just my opinion.

[AirAux]

Any time you can feed the wife and kids on what we make in CAP, more power to you.  What we do is extremely important and some of us put more time into it than we should to the detriment of our families and businesses.. In reality, it is not our main job in life.. When you have the years of experience that I have you may feel different.  And it has nothing to do with credibility..  Sideshow or not, my butt has been out of bed in the middle of the night many, many more times than I would have desired, but I answer when called.  that didn't relief me of the need to get out of bed in the morning and and answer life..  Work hard at what you do in CAP, but remember, it isn't the Real Military and it isn't all there is to life..  JMHO..   

edited to correct misspelling..

[Thrashed]

[/quote]
Let's see what 35-5 says about Aerospace Education Officer promotions:

"A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member."
[/quote]

No one's talking about AEO or promotion by AEO.  One of CAP's missions is AE and a CFI is good at AE.  If he's contributing to a mission of CAP with his CFI he can promote to Capt. I'm a CFI and I'm not an AEO.  I'm not a CAP CFI, yet I promoted to Capt.  You don't even have to be a CFI; it says CFI or ATP.  I use all my knowledge and skills anyway I can for CAP.

[caphornbuckle]

Wow, is it no wonder that we don't have Army Aviator rotor types lining up to join and assist us.  I could sure use a handful to help me with my squadron.  Their experience and motivational affect on the cadets would be worth captain alone.

Usually an Army Aviator will be an officer or Warrant Officer anyways.  Though not mandatory (but most times), they can receive a CAP grade equal to their Army Rank regardless of their pilot credentials.

[JeffDG]

Wow, is it no wonder that we don't have Army Aviator rotor types lining up to join and assist us.  I could sure use a handful to help me with my squadron.  Their experience and motivational affect on the cadets would be worth captain alone.

Usually an Army Aviator will be an officer or Warrant Officer anyways.  Though not mandatory (but most times), they can receive a CAP grade equal to their Army Rank regardless of their pilot credentials.

If you look back at the original post, he received his flight training after leaving the service.

[caphornbuckle]

Actually, I was referencing the point that Army Aviators can join with advanced grade,
in general.   Not for the individual in question.

[JeffDG]

^^

Rgr.  But as with Mission Skill promotions, such grades are at the discretion of the commander.

[Short Field]

^^ as is true of all promotions. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have two officers in my squadron who are rotary-wing CFI's.  Put your guy in for Captain.  It will slide through without problems.  The regulation does not specify fixed-wing ratings, so he is eligible.

[Flying Pig]

In my Sq, a CFI doesnt become a Capt until they qualify as a CAP CFI or CAP Check Pilot.  They don't get any advanced mission related skill promotion until they pass their Form 5.  If you do your Form 5, but chose not to become a CAP CFI, you stop at 1Lt.  Those are my standards, supported by the Group Commander and Wing CC.

Not fair that my Sq Check Pilot gets Capt for being a CAP CFII/G1000 Check Pilot, but another CFI who may not even want to fly in CAP can walk in and get the same thing.

[ZigZag911]

In my Sq, a CFI doesnt become a Capt until they qualify as a CAP CFI or CAP Check Pilot.  They don't get any advanced mission related skill promotion until they pass their Form 5.  If you do your Form 5, but chose not to become a CAP CFI, you stop at 1Lt.  Those are my standards, supported by the Group Commander and Wing CC.

Not fair that my Sq Check Pilot gets Capt for being a CAP CFII/G1000 Check Pilot, but another CFI who may not even want to fly in CAP can walk in and get the same thing.

FP, I'm glad to see someone taking the requirement that advanced grade recipients actually actively contribute their mission related skill to CAP.

If more commanders at all levels held to your standards with mission related and professional appointments, there would be far less controversy about the promotions.

[Flying Pig]

Not completely related, but I also require that in order to fly the plane or do an initial Form 5, you must complete Level 1, all GES and FEMA requirements, enroll and be actively pursuing a specialty track of your choice and be active to the point where you are responsible for a staff or assistant staff position before a new member ever touches the plane.  Basically, your going to be in CAP about 6 months before you ever go flying.  Since we have a G1000, people seem to be coming out of nowhere.  Great, as long as they are coming for the right reasons.  The speech I give new members is that CAP doesn't just happen, and we aren't going to sit here and do all the work while the rest of you new guys come in once in a when there is flying to be had.
And no, Im not hurting for pilots or recruiting.  I have people coming out of my ears.  Which, to me, makes this standard even more important.  Again, supported by the Group CC.  I don't want my unit ending up like some who have a few hundred hours per year on their plane, but can only account for a couple of missions.

[Eclipse]

^ Imagine that - actual expectations of performance for new members...

MY only issue with the above is the staff position.  I personally think we don't allow our members enough time to just be "members" before giving them staff work to do, but of course the reality is that we don't have 3-deep staff directorates to provide us that luxury.

[Flying Pig]

^ Imagine that - actual expectations of performance for new members...

MY only issue with the above is the staff position.  I personally think we don't allow our members enough time to just be "members" before giving them staff work to do, but of course the reality is that we don't have 3-deep staff directorates to provide us that luxury.

No, I agree.  Thats why we made it a point to add that at assistant slot was acceptable. At least start doing SOMETHING. However, probably like many here, I have never been just a "member".  My first job day 1 as a Senior Member was as DCC at Sq45 in CAWG.  I left that and became a Deputy for Seniors and ES Officer and then SQCC at my current Sq.  I was in CAP 5 years as a Senior Member before I ever set one foot in an airplane, and I was a pilot during that time.  I was a young 22yr old CAP 1Lt and had just left the active duty Marines literally 3 months prior and was having a blast reliving my youth as the DCC and working with cadets.
But lets face it, staff work for most jobs is nothing.  Getting on line and doing some data entry for vehicle logs is fine.  Just dont make me or my Deputy have to do everything.  Heck, at least ask to do something and let me tell you "No Thanks, but I appreciate you asking."
I cant stand members who refuse to make eye contact when I stand in front of the room and ask people for help, and then I see they have the plane scheduled the next weekend for a "proficiency flight" to Monterey, but I cant get them to raise one finger at the base.

[AirDX]

I hate to resurrect a dead, stinky thread, but just to close the loop, turns out what happened was that page 2 of a 2 page attachment to the Form 2 got separated somewhere between here and NHQ (refer to the original post for the story).  That page was the one that showed his CFI rating.  After resubmitting the package, this valuable, contributing member of our squadron holds the rank of Captain.

[BGNightfall]

I'm actually really glad to hear this.  Given that we, as an organization have precious few rewards for our hard working members, it's good to see this member getting the recognition he deserves!