Mission Related Promotion for a Rotary Wing Pilot

[AirDX]

Question: does anyone out there have experience with mission-related promotions for non-fixed wing pilots?

Situation: We had a guy join the squadron, he's an E-6 in the Navy Reserve.  When he left AD, he used his GI Bill to take helicopter training.  He is a commercial/CFII in helicopters only, no fixed-wing ratings.  He flew professionally, then got laid off from his helo flying job, now he's a contractor for the Navy.

Based on 35-5, which does not say anything about fixed-wing or anything else, we put him in for a mission-related promotion to captain.  Somewhere between here and NHQ, it got knocked down to 1LT.  I haven't inquired yet who knocked it down or why, but I'm just wondering if there have been similar experiences out there, either positive or negative.  He's a good dude, and if I can get him captain, I will.

Comments and experiences?

[PHall]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

Which is probably why it got bumped down and it's lucky it got anything at all.

[AirDX]

Mission related Skill Promotion for Rotary Wing Pilot? Uhh, how many helicopters does CAP have? How will he be using his skills to help CAP?

As many as we have transport category aircraft, yet we give advanced grade for an ATP. 

Again.... the reg does not specify fixed-wing, rotary wing, glider, balloon, etc.  And if he gets *some* credit for rotary wing ratings, why not all?  I know I have to ask this question up the chain, and I will, but I was hoping for some direct experience with this sort of thing, not half-baked comments.

Personally I see anyone with his level of aeronautical knowledge as more than able to directly benefit our missions. 

[a2capt]

He gets some credit probably for the pilot license, but mission related promotions are supposed to mean using that experience, degree, license, whatever, in a capacity within CAP.

Pilots can get 2Lt, perhaps the higher ratings get you more 1 time promotions. Such as an instrument rating, you can get 1Lt, CFI .. etc.. Capt.  provided you've applied toward using them within CAP.

How many helicopters do we have?

Can you do a Form 5 in a helicopter? Give O-Rides?

We've had to deal with that in the distant past. "I'm a pilot, I read I can get promoted instantly" and they act surprised when they are asked, "where's your Form 5?" Oh, you mean I have to actually fly for CAP?"

[Flying Pig]

As a Commercial Helo pilot I would put him in for the 2Lt, but thats it.  He's lucky he got 1Lt in my book.  Me loves them helicopters.....but its not a skill related to CAP.  Quite honestly, as far as CAP is concerned, he may as well not even have a license.  And thats coming from an employed Commercial helicopter pilot.
Mission related skill means "Mission Related Skill".  As it is, I don't give new member pilots their mission related promotion until after they complete a Form 5.   My rule.  Because if you join and never use it, it's not a skill.
I would argue regarding his aeronautical knowledge being a benefit to CAPs mission as only being a helo driver.  Even being a CFII-H does nothing for CAP because hes a helo CFII.  "Mission Related Skill".  I have several member with mission and professional advanced promotions. If it's not a direct benefit to CAPs mission I don't see how you can justify it.  I would say as a SqCC myself, CAP did right by 1Lt.  They recognized his education but stopped short of the full boat.  Yes the regs do not discriminate help, fixed wing etc.  But it's clarified in the definition of "mission related skill".

[JeffDG]

As a CFII-H, he has the same quals for ground instruction as a IGI, and they're eligible for Captain.

[Larry Mangum]

They are only eligible for promotion to Captain, IF they are using the skills for CAP. So if you are a CFI and not utilizing your skills either through being a check airman or as an instructor, then you are not eligible for the rank.

[EMT-83]

A quick read of 35-5 explains Mission Related Skills promotions:

"In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment and subsequent promotion to a grade commensurate with these skills, provided they are contributing these skills to the CAP mission."

Commanders need to determine whether members meet the requirement of contributing those skills, not merely having them. For example, I've got an instrument rated pilot that hasn't gotten around to obtaining his CAP IFR rating, so he's still a second lieutenant as a VFR pilot. Yes, he has the skills, but he's not contributing them to the CAP mission.

[JeffDG]

They are only eligible for promotion to Captain, IF they are using the skills for CAP. So if you are a CFI and not utilizing your skills either through being a check airman or as an instructor, then you are not eligible for the rank.

How about if this CFII-RH were to offer to provide an Instrument Ground School for pilots in his squadron?  Then he would, in essence, be providing the same mission skills as an IGI can provide, and IGIs are eligible for Mission Skill promotion to Captain.

(Note, I have no personal knowledge of the situation, and am commenting solely hypothetically)

[Eclipse]

How many times?  Once?  Annually?  Every time he wants to be promoted?  He may be externally qualified as an instructor but he may be the worst teacher ever, and since he doesn't do fixed wing, he's not going to be in the form 5 club so how will his skills be vetted?

We don't do rotor any more than we do hovercraft.  Bending over backwards to give someone tracks may just hack off the others in the unit.
He got 1st Lt.  That's plenty for a new member who doesn't have a directly relate-able mission skill, and recognizes his military service.

[JeffDG]

How many times?  Once?  Annually?  Every time he wants to be promoted?  He may be externally qualified as an instructor but he may be the worst teacher ever, and since he doesn't do fixed wing, he's not going to be in the form 5 club so how will his skills be vetted?

We don't do rotor any more than we do hovercraft.  Bending over backwards to give someone tracks may just hack off the others in the unit.
He got 1st Lt.  That's plenty for a new member who doesn't have a directly relate-able mission skill, and recognizes his military service.

How then would you evaluate someone who was simply an IGI and not a pilot of any kind?

[Thrashed]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

[vento]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

Agreed, only IF he can do the job of an educator. It would be a good idea to wait for at least 6 months to observe and validate the qual of the new member for any promotions above 2nd Lt. Otherwise, we are not only doing a diservice to the new member, but also a diservice to existing members.

[Short Field]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE. 

[JeffDG]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE.

By contrast, there's no evidence he's not contributing either.

[EMT-83]

One of CAP's missions = Aerospace education.
CFII in Heli's = aerospace educator.

Who cares what he flew or doesn't fly now.  He's an instructor who can teach.  Is the history of aviation different for helicopter pilots?  Is weather?  Aerodynamics?  Navigation?  Actually, all the CAP aerospace education material covers helicopters too. 

I'd give him Capt.

Let's see what 35-5 says about Aerospace Education Officer promotions:

"A CAP aerospace education officer is an officer serving in an aerospace education position at any level of CAP. For the purpose of promotion under the professional appointments method the aerospace education officer must also be fully certified as a professional educator (teacher, counselor, or administrator) by the state department of education in the member's state of residence or have served as a college or university professor (full, associate or assistant) or other faculty member."

[Flying Pig]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  They would however get their promo for having a Commercial/Instrument after they complete a CAP Form 5.  But nothing for being a CFI.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

Soooooo, to make this more personal and relevant, I have a new pilot in my unit who is a PPL-RH and a PPL-Airplane but no HP endorsement.  Until he gets his HP endorsement, he cant fly anything in CAWG, so he will stay a SM until he gets his HP and his Form 5 done.  Again, for me, no mission related promo because he has no Mission Related Skill that CAP can use......yet.  When he does, he will be rewarded properly.  And you know what?  Hes cool with it.

So again, we are back to the argument that as a SqCC, I think he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  But, he's your guy not mine.
So another question, does this guy really care either way?  Fight for your guy, Im all for that, but sometimes you need to ask yourself who this is really more important to.  You or him?

[JeffDG]

Ive never received any instruction from an AGI, BGI or IGI.  Not that others havn't though.  But, in order to do ground towards a BFR, IPC or a Form 5 requires you to be a CAP Check Pilot or CAP CFI.  As a CFII-RH, he would not be doing either.  Now, he could do an instrument ground instruction for member/pilots outside of CAP, but not in an official capacity as a CAP Instructor or towards any Form 5 or 91. 
In the case of an IPC you wouldnt split the time between 2 instructors. The ground and flight would to be completed by the same instructor.  Either paid for outside of CAP using a private instructor or by a CAP Check Pilot. 
Unless he is an AGI, a CFII-RH probably shouldnt be providing ground for an airplane pilot in most cases.  Sure, weather, nav, etc. he would be fine, but again, he's not a CAP CFI.  We cant seem to escape that inconvenient tid-bit.  I would suggest perhaps if its that important, have the guy go down and knock out his AGI and then you would have an argument.

Lets take this a step further.  In CAWG, (I know your not in CAWG, but humor me) in order to be a CAP CFI you need to have logged 100hrs of dual instruction time as a CFI before you can qualify as a CAP CFI.  200hrs of instruction time provided to prep for a new pilot for a Form 5 and 300hrs of dual instruction time to be a check pilot in CAWG.
So really, if I get a brand new CFI in who has never had a student, yes they are a CFI, but CAWG wont use them until they reach a minimum of 100hrs of instruction provided.  So one could argue in CAWG that their newly minted CFII isnt a mission related skill because CAWG wont/can't use them.  Clear as mud?

Hes not going to be able to hold classes to benefit CAP pilots because again, hes not a CAP Check Pilot or CAP Instructor.  Just because your an IGI doesnt mean you can walk into a CAP unit and start providing members ground instruction and he will never be a CAP CFI.  In order to be the Aerospace Education Officer and receive the promotion to Captain you need to be a credentialed teacher in your State. 

So again, we are back to the argument that he made out pretty good with 1Lt.  So another question, does this guy really care either way?

So, are Form 5 and Form 91 the only way someone can contribute to CAP's mission?  Is that all the training a CAP member needs is that training necessary to pass a Form 5 or Form 91.

Let's say you have an MP who doesn't have an IR.  Why couldn't the designated CFII-RH do ground school with him to get him ready for the written, while a CFII handles the flight portion of the training.  Would that CFII-RH (acting as an instrument ground isntructor) not be contributing his skills to a CAP mission and increasing the skills and proficiency of a MP?  If such ground instruction is not useful, why does CAPR 35-5 4-3 (Figure 6) specify them as eligible for Mission Skills promotion?

[JeffDG]

I'd give him Capt.

GIVE is the correct word because I see nothing to show he has done anything to support the CAP mission, be it ES or AE.

Actually, yes there is evidence that he's supporting CAP's mission:  His commander submitted a CAPF2.  CAPR 35-5, Section D:  4-2-d states that "The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

Since his commander, whom I presume has more knowledge that I do regarding his contributions to his unit and CAP, has made such a certification, there is evidence that the member is supporting a CAP mission.