Shifting "up" Level Completion requirements for promotion

Started by RiverAux, July 12, 2010, 02:49:16 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Would you support the proposal below for altering the requirements for senior member promotion?

Yes
No
Don't Care

Lt Oliv

I find it very interesting that so many people who get all caught up in this rank business seem to forget that this is not a situation unique to CAP.

A regular guy (or gal!) goes to ROTC, upon graduation is commissioned as a Second Lieutenant or an Ensign.

A Physician is commissioned as a Captain/Lieutenant (O-3).

How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade. That means if Person A and Person B both entered the same college class together, and Person A was commissioned at the age of 22 while Person B went on to medical school, why, Person B will come in at roughly the same pay grade as Person A, even though Person A was there (roughly) 4 years earlier!

This is the reality of the military.

What's that? We're NOT the military? Gotcha, you're a civilian style "First Lieutenant" or "Major" are you? I'll bet your uniform bears no resemblance to that of the USAF. I'll be it doesn't even say "U.S. Air Force" anywhere on your membership card, right?

With military grade comes some degree of military decorum to go with it.

What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

It is also important to note that the regulation provides for advanced promotion based on unspecified "special" qualifications that are just so rare and special that we simply HAVE to promote them. So, there is always the possibility that an individual with either numerous advanced degrees in fields not otherwise covered or someone who simply has a very specialized skill we hope to utilize could find themselves in the same boat.

Senior Officers are (in theory at least) better equipped, through experience and training, to assume greater responsibility. Some people acquire that experience and training through being in CAP for a long time, other times, people acquire those skills elsewhere. It is not "unfair" or "unjust" it just is.


Eclipse

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 19, 2010, 07:37:53 PM
What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

Advanced promotions are not about what they can get away with while no one is looking, they are about recognition for services or abilities that a member brings to the table for CAP use.  In your example, physicians are commissioned higher as much as a recruiting and retention tool as in recognition of their officership abilities.

Say what you want about pilots, lawyers, teachers, or even IT people, getting advanced grade - at least they are allowed and encouraged to use their outside skills in direct service of CAP with no gray area to get them in trouble.  Not the case with medical professionals.

Show me an MD who is willing to give pilots free flight physicals, and I'm more than willing to call them the unit's Medical Officer, otherwise, Charles Emerson Winchester all taught us that being a great surgeon and an educated person doesn't necessarily make you a leader.

My personal experience with individuals who have been conferred advanced grade based on skills they can't, or won't, use in a CAP capacity is that they tend towards an undeserved arrogance and implied knowledge of the program, despite having no real idea what is going on in CAP, or paramilitary environments in general.

We desperately need people who have life skills and professions that encourage responsibility, attention to detail, and service before self, but if they don't have a skill that will be put to use by CAP (and preferably demonstrated before the promotion), they don't deserve to be promoted simply because they found the top quark.

"That Others May Zoom"

capme

I just completed RSC - what a colossal waste of my time!!!  While we are fixing the PD system why don't we go all the way and stamp some meaningful experience into RSC? 

I agree we need to restructure the PD and advancement system.  This proposal makes sense - therefore it will never fly with the bureaucracy.
Joyce A Gaddis, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: capme on July 19, 2010, 09:20:36 PM
I just completed RSC - what a colossal waste of my time!!!  While we are fixing the PD system why don't we go all the way and stamp some meaningful experience into RSC? 

RSC's are completely local - they have curriculum to meet, but they are basically the whim of the respective Region CC.

I have heard good things regarding the PCR RSC.

"That Others May Zoom"

Gunner C

Quote from: RiverAux on July 12, 2010, 10:53:45 PM
Wow, extremely high poll support and all positive comments.  Now I really wish that this was my original idea.

Speaking of original ideas . . .

Tune you Wayback Machines™ to April 10, 2008:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4710.msg91558#msg91571

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Short Field

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 19, 2010, 07:37:53 PM
How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade.
LOL, it must really frost you to know that depending on education and experience, a Physician can enter the military as a O-6.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Lt Oliv

Quote from: Eclipse on July 19, 2010, 07:57:06 PM
Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 19, 2010, 07:37:53 PM
What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

Advanced promotions are not about what they can get away with while no one is looking, they are about recognition for services or abilities that a member brings to the table for CAP use.  In your example, physicians are commissioned higher as much as a recruiting and retention tool as in recognition of their officership abilities.

Say what you want about pilots, lawyers, teachers, or even IT people, getting advanced grade - at least they are allowed and encouraged to use their outside skills in direct service of CAP with no gray area to get them in trouble.  Not the case with medical professionals.

Show me an MD who is willing to give pilots free flight physicals, and I'm more than willing to call them the unit's Medical Officer, otherwise, Charles Emerson Winchester all taught us that being a great surgeon and an educated person doesn't necessarily make you a leader.

My personal experience with individuals who have been conferred advanced grade based on skills they can't, or won't, use in a CAP capacity is that they tend towards an undeserved arrogance and implied knowledge of the program, despite having no real idea what is going on in CAP, or paramilitary environments in general.

We desperately need people who have life skills and professions that encourage responsibility, attention to detail, and service before self, but if they don't have a skill that will be put to use by CAP (and preferably demonstrated before the promotion), they don't deserve to be promoted simply because they found the top quark.

First of all, most MDs CANNOT do flight physicals. Have you ever checked the list of approved providers? In our area, we have two.

Our medical personnel ARE willing to provide First Aid/CPR Training to seniors and cadets.

Our medical personnel ARE willing to be on hand in the event of a medical emergency. Think a Doctor won't step up to save a life due to malpractice? They'd probably get hit twice as hard for NOT acting and someone dying.

My concern is that people seem to view MDs/RNs and other medical practitioners as not offering their skills to CAP. Why? Because a Doctor won't crack open a chest at encampment? A nurse won't administer vaccines?

Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.


Lt Oliv

Quote from: Short Field on July 20, 2010, 12:31:38 AM
Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 19, 2010, 07:37:53 PM
How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade.
LOL, it must really frost you to know that depending on education and experience, a Physician can enter the military as a O-6.

Wow, I really laid the sarcasm on pretty thick. I was pretty confident it would be noticed. The rest of the rant basically goes on to say the opposite, the line you quotes was a mock of the complaint being expressed over advanced grade. Like here:

QuoteThis is the reality of the military.

What's that? We're NOT the military? Gotcha, you're a civilian style "First Lieutenant" or "Major" are you? I'll bet your uniform bears no resemblance to that of the USAF. I'll be it doesn't even say "U.S. Air Force" anywhere on your membership card, right?

With military grade comes some degree of military decorum to go with it.

Lt Oliv

Very strange. I posted the last reply and it seems to have posted this last box that I cannot delete.

NC Hokie

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 20, 2010, 01:11:30 AM
My concern is that people seem to view MDs/RNs and other medical practitioners as not offering their skills to CAP. Why? Because a Doctor won't crack open a chest at encampment? A nurse won't administer vaccines?

Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.
Actually, I think the problem people have with medical professionals getting advanced grade is that our own regulations place severe restrictions on what they can do in CAP.  If you look at it as a business transaction, CAP is paying a premium (advanced grade) for something that it will never fully use (medical training and expertise).
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Eclipse

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 20, 2010, 01:11:30 AM
Our medical personnel ARE willing to provide First Aid/CPR Training to seniors and cadets.

Which is great, except under the current system they are not qualified to provide that training as they do not have a certifying body behind them.

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 20, 2010, 01:11:30 AM
Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.

They are not a resource at all in an emergency, as they are not allowed to provide treatment in their uniform, and when they serve on staff at various activities, they tend to want to treat patients instead of calling EMS.

You can pull all the "what-if's" out of your hat that you want, but that won't change the current state of the regulations, program, or curriculum.  The bottom line is that the specific skillset of a medical professional is less valuable and more risky to CAP than someone with the ability to actually teach first aid.

That doesn't mean I am happy about it, or even agree with it, but it is what it is.

"That Others May Zoom"

NavLT

I have no problems with the change of PD levels to match promotions.  but it is an administrative change it won't change the batches of Maj and LT Col who had (did some one say graft and neopotism)their speicalty track training pencil whipped and slept through all that training to get the shinny baubles on their epaulets.

I also agree with the string that says if wing commanders are eagles region commander should have a star and if that means the  national vice commander should have 2 and the national commander have 3 then so be it. I think too much goes into the Air Univ commander having the same or more than us is a little silly.

Lt J

Patterson

Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

For a person who is a great Squadron Commander and runs the biggest and best performing Squadron in a Wing, I think promotions up to and including Lt Col should be allowed if that person completes the "duty-performance-promotion" requirements.

Shame on Wing Commanders for arbitrarily placing restrictions that are not found in the CAP Regs. 

RVT

Quote from: Patterson on July 24, 2010, 12:18:34 AMSome Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

First I've heard of that.

Eclipse

Quote from: Patterson on July 24, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

Actually, some wings have tried that and when objections were raised, the practice stopped.

Commanders can always use the squishy "he's not ready" as justification for denial of promotion, but putting additional objective criteria in place for a promotion is clearly and specifically prohibited by regulations.   

"That Others May Zoom"

Patterson

Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2010, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: Patterson on July 24, 2010, 12:18:34 AM
Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

Actually, some wings have tried that and when objections were raised, the practice stopped.

Commanders can always use the squishy "he's not ready" as justification for denial of promotion, but putting additional objective criteria in place for a promotion is clearly and specifically prohibited by regulations.

I believe the most recent was from Pennsylvania Wing, where the Wing Commander even has the "new promotion system" on their website.  So, its been in place for  months....yet no one has challenged it and National has decided it is OK, just by their inaction.  So, PA is not following regulations then.  They should fire that Wing Commander (again).   

However, I am not a "connected" person in the CAP political machine.  Guess if I were a PA Wing Member I would be a Captain for my entire time in CAP.   

Short Field

Sure destroys any incentive for professional development.   If you don't suck up to the Wing King to get a Wing or Group command job, you are out of luck.  They must have some very fragile egos in Pennsylvania.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

keystone102

I believe this policy came from the Region Commander.

Custer

Quote from: Patterson on July 24, 2010, 06:57:26 PMHowever, I am not a "connected" person in the CAP political machine.  Guess if I were a PA Wing Member I would be a Captain for my entire time in CAP.

I've been a Captain in CAP since 1986.

Capt Rivera

So who is going to write up the proposal and get their Wing CC to sponsor it? Once thats done others can ask their Wing CC to support it out the gate. (co sponsor)
//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org