SM vs C/AB - Why the discrepancy?

[Eclipse]

Here's another example where the left hand isn't talking to the right hand has more important things to worry about.

Fixed that fer 'ya...

[Hawk200]

SM/OC. Senior Member/Officer Candidate.

Then again, neither has an insignia. C.A.P. cutouts are not a rank insignia.

[RiverAux]

Then why is it used to fill the grade block on forms and membership cards?

Because computers don't like blank spaces.

[lordmonar]

If it looks like a grade, quacks like a grade, smells like a grade........but is technically not a grade...who cares?

We are talking about stupid semantics that last only six months.

[RiverAux]

Is it too much to ask that as much of CAP life as possible have some logical reason or purpose behind it?

[SarDragon]

Is it too much to ask that as much of CAP life as possible have some logical reason or purpose behind it?

Yes, when you expect their logic to match yours 100% of the time. 

[PA Guy]

Geeez, this discussion makes my head hurt.  By the way, how many angels can stand on the head of that pin?

[lordmonar]

Geeez, this discussion makes my head hurt.  By the way, how many angels can stand on the head of that pin?

That one is easy......measure the ass of an angle....measure the head of a pin....divide one into the other.

I will leave the rest as an exercise for the student. 

(tip of the hat to Robert Heinlein).

[RiverAux]

Just because all possible issues are not of earth-shattering importance doesn't mean that they aren't worth talking about. 

In fact, one might say that most of what we talk about is in that category, so I would advise folks to not get too high and mighty about which issues are too nitpicky to discuss since somewhere in their prior posts I'm sure we could find an example of them doing the same thing. 

[Eclipse]

Point taken - but this isn't new - just new today. 

We've discussed it a bunch of times, same with most of the other active threads on here right now.  And you're not some newb, you were in those conversations as well.

It would actually be ok, when nothing's going on, to have no activity here.

[Lt Oliv]

SM is not a "temporary" grade any more than an actual grade.

We have multiple members who have absolutely no interest in grade. We have one SM who has been an SM(WOG) for almost two years. They are promotion eligible, they just don't want to.

Of course cadets are treated differently.

Cadets are kids and senior members are adults. We're supposed to be treated differently.

There are Senior Member pilots who join JUST TO FLY, or JUST TO PLAY WITH RADIOS, or JUST TO SPEND TIME WITH THEIR KIDS (who are cadets) and couldn't care less if they have a military-sounding grade. A cadet does not join with similar motivation.

If you HAD to do something radical, I would say this: Make new members choose. If they don't care about military grade/uniforms, let them stick with "SM" but if they want to pursue the PD THEN give them "Officer Candidate" or "Flight Officer" or "Warrant Officer" or whatever other suggestions are floating out there.

Some people just don't want the rank/uniforms. Why would we force it on them?

[Gunner C]

WIWAC, Senior member was the initial grade for adults.  If you get out your old CAPM 50-3, it will tell you the title of address for each grade.  SM was addressed as "Senior Member."  Mr/Ms is reserved for FOs and military WOs.

SM is a grade.  It is the lowest grade. If you say they are without grade, then they have no relation to any other member.  Their grade is below FO or any CAP NCOs you may have. You can't have a member without grade, you just have someone at the lowest grade.  They are, more correctly, senior members without grade insignia.

[Lt Oliv]

Their grade is below FO or any CAP NCOs you may have. You can't have a member without grade, you just have someone at the lowest grade. 

I suppose this brings us to a discussion on the point of CAP rank.

What does it mean for a CAP rank to be "above" or "below" another?

In the military, there is a difference in pay and (generally) responsibility.

In the military, you will not likely find a unit commanded by an O-1 with two O-5's serving under him/her.

Likewise, you may consider SM "below" another grade, but the reality is, it is an orange in a bunch of apples. It is a non-military sounding grade smack dab in the middle of a military-style hierarchy.

The fact is, we have SM Commanders and Lieutenant Colonels who have never served in command positions.

Rank denotes completion of PD requirements more than anything else because the prevailing wisdom is that members "deserve" promotion if they get all of the "check-offs" rather than being related to additional responsibilities.

The last thing we need is more ranks, more Levels or anything of the sort.

I think the time has come for CAP to either rethink how we apply military grade or scrap the system altogether and go to a system like what the USCG Auxiliary uses.

[RiverAux]

If you say they are without grade, then they have no relation to any other member. 

Thats the exact situation we're in.  Looks at the list of senior member grades in 35-5 1-3 and you won't find "senior member without grade on it" even though all CAP NCO, F/O, and Officer ranks are listed.  No one can say that a senior member without grade is a grade in and of itself.

So, I actually do have an easy solution to this relatively minor problem.... Just make "Senior Member" an actual grade.

Sure it isn't a "real military" rank, but then again our FO ranks aren't "real" either.

Where to put it?  Below all other SM grades since all you can do from there is move up. 

[SarDragon]

If you say they are without grade, then they have no relation to any other member. 

Thats the exact situation we're in.  Looks at the list of senior member grades in 35-5 1-3 and you won't find "senior member without grade on it" even though all CAP NCO, F/O, and Officer ranks are listed.  No one can say that a senior member without grade is a grade in and of itself.

So, I actually do have an easy solution to this relatively minor problem.... Just make "Senior Member" an actual grade.
Sure it isn't a "real military" rank, but then again our FO ranks aren't "real" either.

Where to put it?  Below all other SM grades since all you can do from there is move up.
]

It is. I pointed out two examples of it above. I'm sure there are more, but it's not important enough to do any more research.

I have been accused of being pedantic many times, both on here and elsewhere. I have, in the past, gone way overboard at picking fly poop out of pepper. Having been given many lessons that behaviour, I think I can recognize it fairly well. I am seeing it all over this thread.

IMHO, nothing's broken, except a little bit of explanation from the olde hands to the newbs. This ain't rocket surgery.

[SarDragon]

WIWAC, Senior member was the initial grade for adults.  If you get out your old CAPM 50-3, it will tell you the title of address for each grade.  SM was addressed as "Senior Member."  Mr/Ms is reserved for FOs and military WOs.

SM is a grade.  It is the lowest grade. If you say they are without grade, then they have no relation to any other member.  Their grade is below FO or any CAP NCOs you may have. You can't have a member without grade, you just have someone at the lowest grade.  They are, more correctly, senior members without grade insignia.

Speaking of the 50-3, I just looked in my olde one (2nd ed, 1967) and on the page titled - Civil Air Patrol Grade Insignia and Titles - down at the very bottom in the Non-Commissioned Members section, it says Senior Member (SM). That's the way it's been since I joined CAP in 1964, although its manner of explanation has suffered over the years. Right across the table is Cadet Basic (CB). Neither of these grades have insignia. The structure has changed a bit over the years with additions and subtractions, but the system remains the same.

[necigrad]

SM is not just for those Senior Members that don't want to go through the PD program either, it is also for ANY SM who does not possess a high school diploma.  CAP has determined that to (be entitled to/have earned) the rank of 2Lt or higher one must meet certain requirements, predominantly Level One.  Any member that will not or can not complete those requirements needs to be referred to as something.  Assigning a member the "rank" of Senior Member" makes them feel more a part of CAP.  While they are not an "Officer" there are (to my knowledge) no benefits or drawbacks to being a SM vs. an Officer.  It's just a prefix.  In the "real world" we use Mr., Mrs., etc.  In CAP, being, at least in part, modeled after the Air Force, our prefixes are rank.  Since rank has no substantive meaning in CAP, who cares?

Did that come out as a disastrous mumbling or was it actually coherent?

[Eclipse]

Coherent mumbling...

[Ned]

Cadets are kids and senior members are adults. We're supposed to be treated differently.

(Off - Topic, but important.)

Strong non-concur.

The concepts of "cadethood" and "adulthood" are simply unrelated.

Apples and oranges.

Some cadets are minors; some are adults.

Some seniors are minors; some are adults.

Cadets are cadets, by deninition a military student, usually training to be an officer.  Uncle Sam has cadets ranging in age from 12 (JROTC) to over 30 (in ROTC and the Service Academies).

Now back to your  typical nit-picking CAPTalk thread, where we will spend several pages arguing about nothing.  The regs are somewhat inconsistent it their use of SM.

And ultimately it simply doesn't matter.  Everyone knows what we are talking about.  Stakeholders don't care about the inconsistency.  The general public doesn't care.  99.99% of CAP doesn't care.  It is literaly not worth the time and effort it would take to update and harmonize the regs.

But that has never stopped us here, has it?

[HGjunkie]

Cadets are kids and senior members are adults. We're supposed to be treated differently.

(Off - Topic, but important.)

Strong non-concur.

The concepts of "cadethood" and "adulthood" are simply unrelated.

Apples and oranges.

Some cadets are minors; some are adults.

Some seniors are minors; some are adults.

Cadets are cadets, by deninition a military student, usually training to be an officer.  Uncle Sam has cadets ranging in age from 12 (JROTC) to over 30 (in ROTC and the Service Academies).

Now back to your  typical nit-picking CAPTalk thread, where we will spend several pages arguing about nothing.  The regs are somewhat inconsistent it their use of SM.

And ultimately it simply doesn't matter.  Everyone knows what we are talking about.  Stakeholders don't care about the inconsistency.  The general public doesn't care.  99.99% of CAP doesn't care.  It is literaly not worth the time and effort it would take to update and harmonize the regs.

But that has never stopped us here, has it?

Care to elaborate?