Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[Flying Pig]

Looking back.... I was actually 22 as a Marine and Army vet and CAP 2Lt.  I became a Deputy when I turned 23.  I was driving Armored Cars at 22 during the 9 months it took me to get hired on by the S.O.  Thing is with CAP, CAP itself usually has little to do with how you are perceived.  Generally our members, as they get older, have a bigger picture to offer.

[Garibaldi]

Again, because until you're over the hill in age you can't formulate a coherent thought or idea, so should be promptly ignored.

Hmmm, Interesting observation.  When I was 23 (you are about that age right?)  I was a baby faced CAP 2LT, I looked like I was about 16.  However, I was also a 23 yr old former Marine infantry Sergeant.  I was an active Infantry Sgt in the Army Reserves, and I was a full time Deputy Sheriff.   I was married, had my own house and everything that came with it.  I never had any issues with people listening to me when I spoke or soliciting my input.

And I would be willing to bet you carried yourself and performed in a way which garnered respect.

There's a big difference between a Marine Sgt and a typical, non-service, CAP Darksider.

***DELETED DUE TO SOUNDING TOO MUCH LIKE A PITY PARTY***

[Майор Хаткевич]

My point is that yes, perhaps my peers can act like complete brainless idiots, but if we want to talk about respect, then everyone should start out at 100%. They screw up, say dumb stuff all the time, are unreliable, etc? That chips away at their respect. But I've seen plenty of BTDT adults who may be SMEs in their work life, completely fail in CAP jobs. Over time my respect for them had decreased in a similar fashion others have gained even more by their actions.

I don't want to be your buddy at a CAP meeting. If we go for beers I probably am not the best guy to talk to about your marriage problems or that ass boss who just got promoted over you - yet. But to be fair, I don't want to be that buddy yet anyway. While I've gotten to know many SMs over the past 9 years, I'm just now learning about them in the un-censored form. People at my unit may know me from before college, but ultimately I'm still one if the FNGs who does have to prove himself to earn trust. That's fine and I accept it. The problem I have is people dismissing others JUST due to age. For all I know, there are a bunch of 45 year old fat food workers who live with their elderly mothers on this board. They may have twice my years, but perhaps not the experiences I've had. I certainly have a different perspective and life from some other 22 year old back from a deployment to Afghanistan. He most certainly has a different perspective from someone who never went to college, doesn't work, and lives with his parents. We're all different, so judging the book by its cover is probably not wise.

[Eclipse]

The problem I have is people dismissing others JUST due to age.

You're going to have to change a wider swath then just CAP for that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

To make it clear, my Post was typed at the same time as the Majors, but what I was referring to are people who never leave the nest.

Darn tablet.

[Flying Pig]

My point is that yes, perhaps my peers can act like complete brainless idiots, but if we want to talk about respect, then everyone should start out at 100%. They screw up, say dumb stuff all the time, are unreliable, etc? That chips away at their respect. But I've seen plenty of BTDT adults who may be SMEs in their work life, completely fail in CAP jobs. Over time my respect for them had decreased in a similar fashion others have gained even more by their actions.

I don't want to be your buddy at a CAP meeting. If we go for beers I probably am not the best guy to talk to about your marriage problems or that ass boss who just got promoted over you - yet. But to be fair, I don't want to be that buddy yet anyway. While I've gotten to know many SMs over the past 9 years, I'm just now learning about them in the un-censored form. People at my unit may know me from before college, but ultimately I'm still one if the FNGs who does have to prove himself to earn trust. That's fine and I accept it. The problem I have is people dismissing others JUST due to age. For all I know, there are a bunch of 45 year old fat food workers who live with their elderly mothers on this board. They may have twice my years, but perhaps not the experiences I've had. I certainly have a different perspective and life from some other 22 year old back from a deployment to Afghanistan. He most certainly has a different perspective from someone who never went to college, doesn't work, and lives with his parents. We're all different, so judging the book by its cover is probably not wise.

[/b][/i]

Your absolutely right.  But your talking like that only happens in CAP.  Thats life.  Young, youthful appearance will always, ALWAYS be an issue for someone who has something to offer an older crowd to overcome .  Especially when you are with people who knew you when you were a kid.  If you were to pack up and move to somewhere where nobody knew you, it might be different.... it might not.

[GroundHawg]

The last USAF Warrant Officer was a Reservist and he did not retire until the mid 90s. The USAF still has Warrant Officer grades on the books, they just do not use them since reworking the SNCO grades to include Senior and Chief. They basically just let the program phase out and die.

I have seen a few instances where O's became E's. While in the Army Guard, we had a guy who was RIF from the USAF and went guard to get this 20, from 03 to E5. He actually loved it! We had lots of guys get WOCS that were E4 and E5. I hear the USMC, USN, and USCG were WAY more strict with their WO programs.

There was a guy who recently retired from my reserve unit who was an CW3 in the Army and was a E6 in USAF reserve, when they read off your retirement grade, they read the highest rank held. It was wierd to hear someone in the USAF retirement ceremony with CWO rank.

Ive heard, that the USPHS plans/planned on using the WO ranks for those with professional certs and AA degrees but not Bachelor/Master degrees. Like paramedics, 2 year RNs, RDs etc... I wish they would get on with their reserve program as well! I would join tomorrow!

[docbiochem33]

The last AF WO to retire was in the 90's.  I was told by a few people that he was actually offered a commission, but turned it down.  He knew he was the last and was going to make the best of it.

I think that the AF needs to bring back WO's.  With pilot-less aircraft why do we need any one from 2LT to LTC flying one.  A W/O could do the same thing.  Sure they get some flight school, but so did flying NCO's in WWII and Korea.

Having WO's in those position would lower costs for the DOD.  The real savings would also come from having only those that wanted to fly the drones actually apply for it.  We could also see a lot more people qualified for drones as you could use people with glasses and contacts.

[ol'fido]

Could someone tell me what kind of age restrictions WOs in the Army have as far as flight status. I know I saw an article a few years ago about a WO5 in the a commo specialty that was hitting mandatory retirement at 63. Also, in the book "No Easy Day" about the raid that got OBL, the author noted that their Blackhawk pilot was 50. Not trying to make a point here, just curious. Also, what kind of flight time do these older WOs have. I have read that Army aviators average the most flight time of any pilots in the military, so I wondered what kind of numbers a WO5 would rack up if they are still flying at 50 or 60.

Also, on the subject of NCOs in CAP, I still think that those who are opposed to it just don't understand or WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE the role that a lot of NCOs play in today's military. This idea of senior NCOs jumping through hoops around junior officers is the stuff of Hollywood. As someone else pointed out anyway, rank in CAP is not indicative of authority but merely a mark of personal desire/achievement.

[SARDOC]

The only thing I know about the Army Aviation Warrant Officer Program is that you have to be accepted and start training prior to your 30th birthday.  I don't know if they have a maximum range.

Now back to the topic of the thread.

Rank insignia is a commonly accepted symbol of authority and I think with the Paramilitary Structure of the Civil Air Patrol.  There is no reason why we can't use it as both a symbol of authority associated with Achievement and Professional development.  This can include an enlisted rank structure. 

I would eliminate Advanced Grade for those who have not necessarily made a contribution to our organization.  If we had an enlisted/Officer structure I might offer Military Commissioned Officers of any grade the Opportunity to be a 2d Lt and let there contribution to the organization lead to their professional development

[wuzafuzz]

Also, on the subject of NCOs in CAP, I still think that those who are opposed to it just don't understand or WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE the role that a lot of NCOs play in today's military. This idea of senior NCOs jumping through hoops around junior officers is the stuff of Hollywood. As someone else pointed out anyway, rank in CAP is not indicative of authority but merely a mark of personal desire/achievement.

What role needs to be served in CAP that cannot be filled by existing members who serve as SMWOG or various other grades? 

Arguably we could abolish all grade structure in CAP and still get along just fine.  I'm not advocating for that, but we could do it and continue to serve professionally.

[Eclipse]

Abolish the grades.

CC's can wear the badge.

All cadets salute all seniors.

All seniors salute each other.

Done.

[SARDOC]

What role needs to be served in CAP that cannot be filled by existing members who serve as SMWOG or various other grades? 

The First thing that jumps to mind is Wing Commander, Region Commander, National Commander among others.

Arguably we could abolish all grade structure in CAP and still get along just fine.  I'm not advocating for that, but we could do it and continue to serve professionally.

I absolutely agree.  We could abolish all grades. IMO I think that the current process of using grade to recognize professional development is great though.  When dealing with Volunteers the more tools we have in the recognition tool box the better off we are.  We as an Organization are kind of weak with recognizing our people.  Some groups may be better than others...My group I don't think has officially recognized anybody in almost over two years.

I think with a more advanced professional development program and using structure to encourage people to participate in our missions could be a viable avenue.  I'm just not the most articulate in creating a comprehensive program to submit for consideration.

[SARDOC]

Abolish the grades.

CC's can wear the badge.

All cadets salute all seniors.

All seniors salute each other.

Done.

I think that the CC job can be rotated around making us more of an autonomous collective where majority rules.

[Eclipse]

I think that the CC job can be rotated around making us more of an autonomous collective where majority rules.

OK, you lost me there - "majority rules" is never a good idea in situations where strategic, and sometimes unpopular decisions, have to be made.
You have to have "commanders", or at least people in clear and specific authority to get anything done.

This is true from Cub Scouts through any organization of consequence.  Majority rule only works when everyone is in agreement,
as soon as two influencers disagree, it's chaos.

[Garibaldi]

Abolish the grades.

CC's can wear the badge.

All cadets salute all seniors.

All seniors salute each other.

Done.

I think that the CC job can be rotated around making us more of an autonomous collective where majority rules.

But all the decisions of that CC have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a 2/3 majority in the case of...

[wuzafuzz]

What role needs to be served in CAP that cannot be filled by existing members who serve as SMWOG or various other grades? 

The First thing that jumps to mind is Wing Commander, Region Commander, National Commander among others.

All those jobs ARE filled by members who serves in various other grades.  Not NCO's.

[SARDOC]

What role needs to be served in CAP that cannot be filled by existing members who serve as SMWOG or various other grades? 

The First thing that jumps to mind is Wing Commander, Region Commander, National Commander among others.

All those jobs ARE filled by members who serves in various other grades.  Not NCO's.

Sorry...I missed the intent of your question.

How about the CAP Command Chief Master Sergeant?  http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2297/~/cap-command-chief-master-sergeant

[SARDOC]

I think that the CC job can be rotated around making us more of an autonomous collective where majority rules.

OK, you lost me there - "majority rules" is never a good idea in situations where strategic, and sometimes unpopular decisions, have to be made.
You have to have "commanders", or at least people in clear and specific authority to get anything done.

This is true from Cub Scouts through any organization of consequence.  Majority rule only works when everyone is in agreement,
as soon as two influencers disagree, it's chaos.

I'm sorry...I think the sarcasm didn't convey well.

[jimmydeanno]

So I suppose the real questions are:

1) Is the creation of the CAP NCO corps something that will actually strengthen our organization?

2) Is it just a feel good program for people who want to wear stripes instead?

3) Is there a differentiation between the roles that either can do or should do?

-------------

In regards to the CAP/CCC, what does the role even do?  The job description really doesn't contain anything that a CAP officer can do or isn't doing.  So, the CAP/CCC spot was created to develop an NCO corps TO DO WHAT?