Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[bosshawk]

A lot of you folks aren't old enough to remember, but there were things called Reduction in Force(RIF) for officers after both the Korean and Viet Nam wars.  In most cases, the officers didn't have enough time in service to qualify for retirement and wanted to remain on active duty until they could retire.  If they had ever served in the enlisted ranks, they could revert to the highest Enlisted rank held.  If no enlisted service, I seem to recall that they could revert to E-4.  I knew of a bunch of former Majors and Lt Cols who were E-6 and E-7.  I replaced a guy in Germany who went from Capt to CWO-4, because he had had a Warrant in the Reserves and had had it long enough to make W-4.  He actually got a pay raise when he reverted, but he was one bitter individual over the whole deal.

I had an ROTC instructor who was a Lt Col with less than 10 years of service(he had made a lot of rank in the Guard).  He was given the choice of reverting to highest Enlisted rank or leaving the Army: he had been an E-4 and he declined to revert: left the Army entirely.  After Viet Nam, there were a bunch of Army Aviators who had been officers and who reverted to Warrant Officer in order to stay on flight status.

And the beat goes on.

[SarDragon]

A lot of you folks aren't old enough to remember, but there were things called Reduction in Force(RIF) for officers after both the Korean and Viet Nam wars. 

After Viet Nam, there were a bunch of Army Aviators who had been officers and who reverted to Warrant Officer in order to stay on flight status.

A very good friend of mine was an Army Warrant helo pilot who got RIF'd in '71. They offered him a deal - get out with no bennies, or revert to E-5 or E-6. But, there was a catch - he couldn't stay in aviation. That's because there was the potential for his working for someone that used to work for him. He bailed.

[BillB]

When I first joined CAP a gazillion years ago, NCO and Warrent grades were very common. Squadron Commanders could award the NCO grades and it was possible to promote thru NCO grades. Warrent Officer grade was often used for the 18-21 year old but required skills and Cadet COP in many cases.
One of the problems of todays Flight Officer grades is the insignia, they more or less follow the Junior ROTC insignia of grade. FO seem to get little "respect" from other seniors due to the mickey mouse insignia. If you don't wear bars, you're not an officer. While USAF has to approve CAP grade insignia, I doubt they would object to CAP reverting to the old Warrent Officer grade insignia (silver bar with blue horizontal stripes. Perhaps the BoG should ask about this.

[docbiochem33]

I actually met a WO in 1992 that used to be a Captain in Vietnam.  At the end of the war he was offered out or E-5.  He took the E-5 for a short time and then got out.  He then went in the National Guard in 1991 and they made him a WO because of his education and experience.  He loved it even though he had been an officer.
He also liked the idea of living in the hotel on post.  He could watch tv in the day room and didn't have to do all the stuff the enlisted living in the dorms had to.  He would just show up, go to class, come back, study for an hour, and then sit in the day room.
When I left the hotel area he was still there and would tell me to go WO.  He joked that is was like being an officer only better.

[tsrup]

When I first joined CAP a gazillion years ago, NCO and Warrent grades were very common. Squadron Commanders could award the NCO grades and it was possible to promote thru NCO grades. Warrent Officer grade was often used for the 18-21 year old but required skills and Cadet COP in many cases.
One of the problems of todays Flight Officer grades is the insignia, they more or less follow the Junior ROTC insignia of grade. FO seem to get little "respect" from other seniors due to the mickey mouse insignia. If you don't wear bars, you're not an officer. While USAF has to approve CAP grade insignia, I doubt they would object to CAP reverting to the old Warrent Officer grade insignia (silver bar with blue horizontal stripes. Perhaps the BoG should ask about this.

You must not have seen a flight officer in a while..

http://www.vanguardmil.com/cap-senior-grade-cloth-insignia-flight-officer-single-stripe-p-7181.html


edit:
somehow missed the bolded part. 

[Eclipse]

FO seem to get little "respect" from other seniors due to the mickey mouse insignia. If you don't wear bars, you're not an officer.

The amount of respect the average Flight Officer gets has little to do with what they wear on their shoulder, nor would changing it to
something else "different" make things better.

[Private Investigator]

I wonder how the USCG Aux manages because very few of their people are officers, no NCOs and so nearly everyone is an Auxilarist only. 

[NCRblues]

I wonder how the USCG Aux manages because very few of their people are officers, no NCOs and so nearly everyone is an Auxilarist only. 

I am so sick and tired of this comparison. The CAP v CGA is getting really old. Were not the coast guard, we don't do things like they do. Sorry, ill stop before I rant.

[Flying Pig]

FO seem to get little "respect" from other seniors due to the mickey mouse insignia. If you don't wear bars, you're not an officer.

The amount of respect the average Flight Officer gets has little to do with what they wear on their shoulder, nor would changing it to
something else "different" make things better.

The fact that FO's are primarily just out of High School and/or brand new college students, trying to mingle with members who are probably old enough to be their parents and grand parents might have something to do with it.  FOs are a way for former cadets to ease into adulthood if they choose to stay in the program. 

[SARDOC]

FO seem to get little "respect" from other seniors due to the mickey mouse insignia. If you don't wear bars, you're not an officer.

The amount of respect the average Flight Officer gets has little to do with what they wear on their shoulder, nor would changing it to
something else "different" make things better.

The fact that FO's are primarily just out of High School and/or brand new college students, trying to mingle with members who are probably old enough to be their parents and grand parents might have something to do with it.  FOs are a way for former cadets to ease into adulthood if they choose to stay in the program.

I think that if we reestablished and enlisted structure and used the Flight Officer grades in lieu of Warrant Officer grades and opened it up to all ages...that respect issue would be changed.

Really, it's not the flight officer grade that's not respected as it's the age of the current holder.

If 18 year olds would be allowed to be 2d Lt's I think the lack of respect would still persist.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Because old farts just don't give respect, they demand it.

[SARDOC]

I am so sick and tired of this comparison. The CAP v CGA is getting really old. Were not the coast guard, we don’t do things like they do. Sorry, ill stop before I rant.

Well it's not really an unfair comparison.  We are both Official Military Auxiliaries who frequently have similar challenges with volunteers/uniforms/roles/respect from their parent service.

We are very different organizations but we can look to them to see lessons learned so we don't always need to try and reinvent the wheel.  Yes, it can be like comparing apples and Oranges...but they are both Fruits that grow on trees with similar size and shape.  It's easier to compare these than comparing apples to moon rocks.

[Eclipse]

Really, it's not the flight officer grade that's not respected as it's the age of the current holder.

If 18 year olds would be allowed to be 2d Lt's I think the lack of respect would still persist.

+1 - the average 18 year old is simply not prepared to interact with adults on an equal level.  They can't - they
have no real world experience, their skills are "wet" at best, and most are focused on "personal life building".

If anything, making them 2d Lts might make things worse.  I know today that a lot of members have little time
for a 21 yro Captain who believes he's on an equal footing with more mature Captains.

[Flying Pig]

Because old farts just don't give respect, they demand it.

Why?  Because they dont break their necks when a 19yr old kid who was a cadet last week opens his mouth?  Knowing your place in the food chain is a valuable trait.  Im 37, spent 8 years in the military, 15 as a cop, Im one of 3 pilots in a 1000 man agency.....you think I immediately get respect everywhere I go?  There are plenty areas at work where I show up that nobody cares who I am, what I do, nor are they interested in my input.  Just because we wear the same uniform doesnt mean anyone has to care.   Now, they are not rude, they dont call me names or spit on me.  Do they respect me?  Im sure they do.  But they arent overly concerned about me when I show up.   Now, they come out to the hangar where I am the expert, trust me.... they respect me.  Especially when the starter engages!  I know my place and how to stay in it.  Same goes for an FO.  Do they dislike you?  I doubt it. Are they overly concerned with your input?  Probably not until you prove it needs to be listened to.  And that takes time. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, because until you're over the hill in age you can't formulate a coherent thought or idea, so should be promptly ignored.

[SARDOC]

+1 - the average 18 year old is simply not prepared to interact with adults on an equal level.  They can't - they
have no real world experience, their skills are "wet" at best, and most are focused on "personal life building".

If anything, making them 2d Lts might make things worse.  I know today that a lot of members have little time
for a 21 yro Captain who believes he's on an equal footing with more mature Captains.

This creates another reason that the Civil Air Patrol has room for an enlisted and officer development program.  There are some people that are either not interested or prepared for the maturity to help manage our organization.  Without any requirement of rank quotas we can create more of a distinction for people dedication or preparation for advanced positions in our organizations.

[Eclipse]

Again, because until you're over the hill in age you can't formulate a coherent thought or idea, so should be promptly ignored.

You know you're actually making the case with responses like that, right?

The simple fact of the matter is that from a maturity and impulse control perspective, people under 25 tend to be less developed.
That doesn't mean they might not be more knowledgeable about a specific topic, even an SME, or don't have cat-like reflexes,
or the ability to calculate Pi in their heads, but their decision making ability, not to mention personal risk curve cannot be compared to
actual "adults".

For every 22 year old with a mortgage, there's 10 Million who just want gas and beer money for the weekend, and "long term" means
3 days.

[Eclipse]

This creates another reason that the Civil Air Patrol has room for an enlisted and officer development program.  There are some people that are either not interested or prepared for the maturity to help manage our organization.  Without any requirement of rank quotas we can create more of a distinction for people dedication or preparation for advanced positions in our organizations.

I would buy into this, if it was a legit "development" program, much the same way the CP is run, including testing and progression requirements.
Knowing they are still in for a far bit of actual work might make the Cadet / Senior decision more equal for 18 years olds who just want to coast for
a few years in uniform.

[Flying Pig]

Again, because until you're over the hill in age you can't formulate a coherent thought or idea, so should be promptly ignored.

Hmmm, Interesting observation.  When I was 23 (you are about that age right?)  I was a baby faced CAP 2LT, I looked like I was about 16.  However, I was also a 23 yr old former Marine infantry Sergeant.  I was an active Infantry Sgt in the Army Reserves, and I was a full time Deputy Sheriff.   I was married, had my own house and everything that came with it.  I never had any issues with people listening to me when I spoke or soliciting my input. 

[Eclipse]

Again, because until you're over the hill in age you can't formulate a coherent thought or idea, so should be promptly ignored.

Hmmm, Interesting observation.  When I was 23 (you are about that age right?)  I was a baby faced CAP 2LT, I looked like I was about 16.  However, I was also a 23 yr old former Marine infantry Sergeant.  I was an active Infantry Sgt in the Army Reserves, and I was a full time Deputy Sheriff.   I was married, had my own house and everything that came with it.  I never had any issues with people listening to me when I spoke or soliciting my input.

And I would be willing to bet you carried yourself and performed in a way which garnered respect.

There's a big difference between a Marine Sgt and a typical, non-service, CAP Darksider.