Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[Short Field]

After all, I am a retired Infantry officer and spent multiple decades dealing with highly competent NCOs and highly competent officers.

You are on the BOG so please repeat after me, "United States Air Force Auxiliary".  As you should know, CAP is not a US Army centric program.  USA Infantry NCOs are trained in different things than USAF NCOs.   The majority of USAF airmen are trained as technicians and gain technical expertise as they advance. Yes, they pick up leadership skills, but it is different set of skills than combat arms NCOs. 

As for the notion that all RM NCOs are so incredibly awesome that no officer could ever hope to hold a candle to them - BULL PUCKEY.

:clap: The last two Sergeant Majors that worked for me were great at organizing golf tournaments but tended to create as many problems in the organization as they solved. (Yes, they were USA E-9s - the USMC E-8 that replaced them didn't play golf and did a much better job).
   

[MSgt Van]

"...I have met good ncos and not-so-good ncos in about the same percentage as officers and civilians."

I second that.

[Ned]

After all, I am a retired Infantry officer and spent multiple decades dealing with highly competent NCOs and highly competent officers.

You are on the BOG so please repeat after me, "United States Air Force Auxiliary".  As you should know, CAP is not a US Army centric program.  USA Infantry NCOs are trained in different things than USAF NCOs.   The majority of USAF airmen are trained as technicians and gain technical expertise as they advance. Yes, they pick up leadership skills, but it is different set of skills than combat arms NCOs. 

Gosh, I think after 40+ years in CAP I have some sense of our Air Force lineage and relationships.

But I strongly disagree that USAF and USA NCOs have significantly different roles.

Sure, both "flavors" of NCO need to be technically competent in their respective career fields, but the primary reason for NCOs is to serve as leaders  and supervisors of their enlisted soldiers and airman.  And the basics of supervising servicemembers is pretty much the same whether they wear green or blue.

I have had the privilege of commanding fairly large joint units, and I have always selected an AF Command Chief rather than an Army Sergeant Major to assist me because I have found that the AF Chief was better at the working in a purple environment and leading soldiers and airmen.

Make no mistake - leading servicemenbers in an operational environment is a serious business that requires similar leadership skills regardless of your uniform color.  It does a serious disservice to CS/CSS/USAF NCOs to imply that only combat arms NCOs have "real" leadership skills.

[Short Field]

but the primary reason for NCOs is to serve as leaders  and supervisors of their enlisted soldiers and airman.  And the basics of supervising servicemembers is pretty much the same whether they wear green or blue.

The next step in this thought is that the primary reason for Officers is to serve as leaders and supervisors of their NCOs.  And the basics of supervising servicemembers is pretty much the same whether they are NCOs or Airmen.

[FW]

Sheesh,  OK, Let's go back to "CAP 101"...

We are civilians.  Our cadets are too.  Our grade structure has nothing to do with the military.  NCO grades will make no difference.
CAP grade is not the impetus for good role models to our cadets; proper senior member training and adherence to our "Core Values" is.

I am not convinced we will change the above "laws of nature". 

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

[arajca]

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

What?! Whaddamean the world isn't flat! When did this happen? Who changed it? It looks flat on my wall...   

[Eclipse]

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

Prove it using only personal experience...

[davedove]

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

Prove it using only personal experience...

of course the world isn't flat.  There are mountains and hills.

[N Harmon]

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

Prove it using only personal experience...

When I observe ships approaching from the horizon on the Great Lakes I can see their tops before I can see their hulls, thus proving a curvature to the earth.

Further, during a lunar eclipse, the shape of the Earth is projected onto the Moon, and it is...round.

[arajca]

Oh, BTW; the world is not flat.

Prove it using only personal experience...

Further, during a lunar eclipse, the shape of the Earth is projected onto the Moon, and it is...round.

But is it round like coin or like a ball? Can you tell from a shadow?

[brasda91]

I may be in the minority, but I believe that the cadet program has a genuine need for quality NCOs to serve as trainers, mentors, and role models for our cadets.

Our cadet program (unlike others) teaches both NCO and officer leadership styles as the cadets progress from C/Amn to C/Col.  And while we are fortunate to have a number of quality CAP officers to serve as role models and coaches for our cadet officers, there is a role for CAP NCOs to model and teach NCO leadership styles.

Sure, in the absencs of NCOs, our CP officers do the best they can to teach and mentor our cadet officers, and they are largely successful.  But genuine NCOs can do so more easily and genuinely.

YMMV.

I don't think the OP was referring to the Cadets.

[ZigZag911]

Clarification, please:

1) are we talking about providing a way for former military NCOs to promote within CAP as NCOs? this might be a good idea

OR

2) are we talking about turning folks with no prior military experience into CAP NCOs? Why? We already try to train such folks as CAP officers, with mixed results at best...which is a result mostly of the system we have in place, rather than any fault of the trainees.

We keep talking about flight officer grades for those who want very limited or focused participation...this makes some sense, rather than the current system of making everyone who shows up for six months a lieutenant (at least!)

[RiverAux]

Clarification, please:

1) are we talking about providing a way for former military NCOs to promote within CAP as NCOs? this might be a good idea

OR

2) are we talking about turning folks with no prior military experience into CAP NCOs? Why? We already try to train such folks as CAP officers, with mixed results at best...which is a result mostly of the system we have in place, rather than any fault of the trainees.

We keep talking about flight officer grades for those who want very limited or focused participation...this makes some sense, rather than the current system of making everyone who shows up for six months a lieutenant (at least!)

What is actually under discussion by the CAP leadership is the first option. 

[Ned]

The next step in this thought is that the primary reason for Officers is to serve as leaders and supervisors of their NCOs.  And the basics of supervising servicemembers is pretty much the same whether they are NCOs or Airmen.

Well, yes and no.

Mostly no.

Given your service, I know you know that officers are not merely "super NCOs."  I'm not sure why you are trying to imply that they are.

The officer and NCO realms and styles have been fairly consistent since the Roman legions.  Every successful military in the last couple thousand years or so has embraced this model.

No really.  It is a universal model.

And they are different.  Yes, they both wear uniforms and supervise folks.  And there may well be more similarities than differences - but the differences are crucial.

At this point I think you are arguing just for the fun of it.  As a legal type guy, I normally enjoy a pointess argument as much as the next guy.

But this is too important for the usual CT treatment.

Reasonable minds can differ as to whether we should have a CAP NCO program after a thorough review of the costs and benefits.  It requires an infrastructure to support and - depending on how we develop and implement it - a lot of new doctrine for training and promotion of an NCO corps.  Which takes time and effort of a lot of PD folks that could otherwise be working on other stuff.

But my point all along has been that there is a least one aspect of our program that would benefit from a strong NCO program.  And that is our Cadet Program where NCOs could serve as valuable instructors and role models.

Obviously, we have a successful program now, so an NCO program is not crucual or vital to CP.  We can get along just fine without one.

But we could have a better CP with it.

Ultimately our volunteer leaders will decide.

[Short Field]

Obviously, we have a successful program now, so an NCO program is not crucual or vital to CP.  We can get along just fine without one.
But we could have a better CP with it.

This becomes a matter of opinion and that is where we have different opinions.

[Spaceman3750]

A lot don't understand what a FO is now, they really won't understand anything more complicated than it already is.

[FW]

Is the CW, of those who will make the decisions, to recruit current or former military NCO's into CAP for the express purpose of giving a "role model" experience to cadets; augmenting our present "NCO Corps"?  Then, give these members a way to advance in grade?  OK, so?  I may be a bit thick however, I still don't see the benefit for CAP; none. 

In going over this thread, we all have a good idea of the NCO's place in the world.  It is an important place but, other than create a perceived "caste" system in CAP, what would be the difference between a CAP  2LT serving as a CP officer and a CAP MSGT doing the same job with the same training?  Grade insignia?

Cadets are supposed to figure out how to follow and how to lead with their peers.  Senior members are only guides.  What we, as senior members, wear on our shoulders or sleeves should not be a factor in the training and care of cadets.  Remember also, most teenagers think we are more of a "necessary evil" than "role models"...

Most cadet and composite squadrons don't have many senior members to begin with.  Recruiting military NCO's into CAP is problematic because of demographics, interest and number.  And, if recruited, how would they serve differently than CAP members with "officer grade"?   Then, there is always the possibility that the "NCO" ends up being the only senior member at  a meeting.  Then what?  What if the "officer" gets into an argument with the "NCO" and walks out?  Do we allow the NCO to "take command"?  Does it matter?  Do we really care?  Not to me....

IMHO, cadets won't care what our grade insignia is.  They will only care for a well run program, excellent training opportunities and, a reason to continue coming to meetings every week.  We need to address these issues before worrying about NCO's in CAP. 

Oh, and BTW; the earth is round because we keep coming back to the same place.... what to wear.

[Eclipse]

Another thing lost on people who don't understand the NCO place in the military is that NCO's are in "charge" or "control", but never in "command", which would negate an NCO from ever being a squadron commander or higher.

If you say "Well, what difference does it make?"  Exactly.

We need a constant stream of good leaders and mentors who work the program, not people who are so focused on the NCO vs. Officer mentality that they can't get past it.

[RiverAux]

We need a constant stream of good leaders and mentors who work the program, not people who are so focused on the NCO vs. Officer mentality that they can't get past it.

The fact is that since almost no prior-service NCOs choose this option for "NCO pride" or whatever reason indicates that not many people are of this mentality. 

If there was a realistic way to start everbody out as enlisted and give them a route to move up through the ranks, I wouldn't be opposed to that.  I just don't think we really have enough training opportunities to provide a couple of dozen meaningful ranks.  Heck, the PD steps we have now within the officer ranks are somewhat weak now.  Just think if we had to spread those steps out over enlisted ranks as well. 

[Nolan Teel]

Heres an Idea... let me know what you think of this...

The only CAP members who wear Officer rank would meet the following criteria, this would apply to new members and not those allready wearing the rank...

1.Former Commissioned Officers and NCOs
2. Former Cadets, Mitchell or higher
3. Members who hold skills we need.  Pilots, Nurses, Doctors, Financial people

All other members would fall into the NCO Tiers...

Provide an avenue for promotion and at a point allow those who have demonstrated the skills for an officer be promoted to one.

I think this would be fine for many members who join because their kids did or hey I just want to help out and volunteer.

Feedback?  This isn't a perfect plan but just something that was in my mind.