Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lt Oliv-

Please quote from CAP regulations where does it state that "SM is a CAP grade."

After 10 years as a CAP member, most of them as both Admin and Personnel Officer, I still cringe when members who have not read the regulations give opinions about what they see or hear in the program without basing their comments on the regulations, pamphlets, and manuals.

Please re-read CAPR 35-5, CAPR Officers and NCOs.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

35-5 says new members are SMWOG, but eServices and your ID card will say "SM".

[cpyahoo]

I'm a CAP senior member NCO!   

[Flying Pig]

Ill say it again....   As soon as everyone realizes that rank in CAP is about personal achievement, not authority, it all gets much easier to understand and accept.   

[lordmonar]

Lt Oliv-

Please quote from CAP regulations where does it state that "SM is a CAP grade."

After 10 years as a CAP member, most of them as both Admin and Personnel Officer, I still cringe when members who have not read the regulations give opinions about what they see or hear in the program without basing their comments on the regulations, pamphlets, and manuals.

Please re-read CAPR 35-5, CAPR Officers and NCOs.

Flyer

It is not.....it is a member with out grade......SMWOG...ergo it is a grade/non grade.  So the grade of SM is just short for SMWOG.   Clear?   Yes?  No?

[SARDOC]

Ill say it again....   As soon as everyone realizes that rank in CAP is about personal achievement, not authority, it all gets much easier to understand and accept.   

That's one of the flaws when working with other agencies.  When you go into a public safety meeting wearing bars.  People associate Rank Insignia with Authority.  When you are in your job and someone comes in wearing Captain bars...is it just because he's been in longer and took an online class that you didn't or is it because this person has been selected to be in a position of authority?

Society has an Expectation that rank insignia means authority.  I think we could recognize personal achievement through our current award/ribbon process.

[RiverAux]

The average member of the public and probably a lot in the ES community wouldn't have any clue just how much authority an AF Captain that shows up at the command post has in comparison to what a CAP Captain has.

In fact, I'd bet that in most situations when a CAP member shows up at the command post that CAP member has probably more actual authority to respond to the needs than would an equivalent ranking member of the military.  There is every possibility that CAP Captain is a CAP Incident Commander that can pretty much make most relevant decisions.  When it gets right down to it you're going to have to go pretty far up the military rank food chain to find someone with equivalent authority to a CAP Incident Commander. 

Heck, you could have a CAP NCO that is an CAP Incident Commander that can speak more for CAP than a AF Lt. Col. could speak for the AF. 

Now, I'm obviously speaking of a CAP IC's abilities after a mission has been approved.  Once that is done, there is very extra approval they need to use the resources under their control. 

[SarDragon]

Wow. How soon we forget. I have quoted some olde posts of mine, related to SMWOG, over the years, dates included.

7/6/07
Well, the term Officer doesn't cover every non-cadet member. A SMWOG is not, by definition, an officer, but is still a senior member. Also, I think the term Senior Member is one of our traditions that shouldn't be arbitrarily discarded. Adult Member might be more definitive, but might make too close an association with other youth groups.

7/3/10
'SM' is ambiguous. It can refer to all adult members as one large group (the senior members), and it is used that way quite often. It can also refer to those adult members who are at the bottom on the rank structure. In informal communication, it is usually clear from the context which meaning is desired.

'Senior members without grade' allows us to talk about that second group without the ambiguity. 'SM' functions as the grade the abbreviation for this group, when needed.

7/3/10

4. Initial Grades. All senior members will be enrolled as CAP senior members without grade, unless they are specifically exempt from Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program and immediately qualify for an officer grade in consideration of previous CAP experience, as set forth in section C.

30. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades. This category is designed as a transition for cadets transferring to senior member status and for those senior members who are otherwise eligible for CAP officer grade except that they have not yet reached the minimum age of 21. Upon reaching age 21, the member will be appointed to an appropriate officer grade or will be classified as a senior member without grade until he or she is eligible for promotion to officer grade.

7/3/10

In what context would you need to distinguish between an "SM" and an "SMWOG"?  Once they are approved by NHQ, the grade is fairly irrelevant in terms of participation.

'SM' as an abbreviation fills the grade block as needed (forms, rosters, etc).

'Senior member without grade', never abbreviated, distinguishes the two groups of adult members I spoke of above, as is done in the bolded text I referred to.

7/3/10

What we have here is several related but separate issues.

A new adult member in CAP is referred to in the regulations as SMWOG.
By definition they have no grade.
But their title is senior member (SM).

Incorrect. The "grade" is SM. "SMWOG is NEVER used as an abbreviation. You only see it spelled out, referring to that particular level of members as a group.

Is this confusing?  Not really...only if you want to be nit picky about it.

Do SM have grade?  Sure thing...they are SMWOG.  Even it that is a contradiction in terms.

Again, incorrect. See above.

But we deal with that all the time.

We have Officers and we have Enlisted....even if half the enlisted personnel have the word "officer" in their title!

So is a Staff Sergeant an officer?   It says so right there on my certificate of appointment to the Non Commissioned OFFICER corps.

But we live with this contradition in terms all the time.

The initial "grade" for all new members is "SMWOG" and he is referred to as "senior member" or "Mr/Ms".

Any one have any problems understanding that?

Apparently, a lot of people. Here's another instance where word-of-mouth has overwhelmed what's written in the regs, and people have done their very best to over complicate things. We need to invoke "KISS" and get people up to speed on what's really correct.

Bottom line - it's actually pretty clear what's going on. You simply need to discard preconceptions, and read the regs.

[SARDOC]

The average member of the public and probably a lot in the ES community wouldn't have any clue just how much authority an AF Captain that shows up at the command post has in comparison to what a CAP Captain has.

In fact, I'd bet that in most situations when a CAP member shows up at the command post that CAP member has probably more actual authority to respond to the needs than would an equivalent ranking member of the military.  There is every possibility that CAP Captain is a CAP Incident Commander that can pretty much make most relevant decisions.  When it gets right down to it you're going to have to go pretty far up the military rank food chain to find someone with equivalent authority to a CAP Incident Commander. 

Heck, you could have a CAP NCO that is an CAP Incident Commander that can speak more for CAP than a AF Lt. Col. could speak for the AF. 

Now, I'm obviously speaking of a CAP IC's abilities after a mission has been approved.  Once that is done, there is very extra approval they need to use the resources under their control.

While I agree with most of this.  In my experience there are indeed some citizens there are some members of the Public who not only have absolutely no recognition of rank insignia or even the difference between military, law enforcement or other uniforms...doesn't change the fact that all of those have meanings in our society.

It is true that authority can be positional as anybody who has taken ICS100 can tell you.  The First Arriving responder to any incident is the Incident Commander until someone else gets there. 

So Ultimately...Why Wear Rank insignia at all if it doesn't really represent Authority?  I get the whole it's a professional development progression...but don't we already recognize that through the Ribbon/Award process?

[flyboy53]

The problem with this whole discussion is how to advance senior members who join the CAP between the ages of 18 and 21. Nobody, Air Force, BOG, or the like is ever going to approve lowering the age requirements below 21 years old; and I have often thought that what a senior member does to get promoted to second lieutenant is really lacking.

I'm not an advocate of brining back the warrant officer program. First, because it would never get Air Force approval; and second CAP warrant officers seemed to be in an odd category when the program was functional....and I was one for about six to eight months. I am an advocate of a formal NCO corps because it gives an alternative to senior members who would prefer that structure and may not have the desire or motivation ot be officers. How many times have you run into career second or first lieutenants? It's almost like those cadets who never progress beyond a Mitchell Award.

At the same time, back in the late 1940s (according to the old CAP Training Manual (1949) that I have and guard, we once had a Officers Training Corps.

Instead of debating the return of NCOs as anything other than a system involving former military NCOs, what would happen if we re-created the OTC, rolling the flight officer program into it, and then using that six months to aggressively ramp up mission training and the officer basic course into some sort of training academy. We do that with cadets at weekend leadership schools, why not senior members. For those senior members who do not meet the age requirements, there might be a model of progression that could be translated to officer rank.

You would say, "that's why we have flight officers," but I think the rank is ususally misunderstood, is taken away when that individual turns 21, and there is never a means to directly transition to second lieutenant...other than a promotion system that makes that rank something of what's the point.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The problem with this whole discussion is how to advance senior members who join the CAP between the ages of 18 and 21.

An enlisted/NCO corps, with the option of going officer at 21 (depending on character of service as enlisted/NCO) or remaining an NCO.

I have often thought that what a senior member does to get promoted to second lieutenant is really lacking.

What's lacking about just showing up for six months?

I'm not an advocate of brining back the warrant officer program. First, because it would never get Air Force approval; and second CAP warrant officers seemed to be in an odd category when the program was functional....

I think warrants in general in the military are like that, mainly because there are so relatively few of them.  Except for Army Aviators, they're generally former NCO's who have proven themselves above-and-beyond in their chosen speciality/MOS.  I believe one must reach E-7 in the Army/USN/USCG/USMC to even be considered for the grade.  I've never figured out, though, how (or why) the Navy juggles both warrants and LDO's.

The first time I ever heard of the rank was as a kid in the '70s watching Baa Baa Black Sheep (great TV, albeit inaccurate as heck) when Sgt. Micklin (Red West) was promoted to the rank (and lost it in the same episode).  I asked my Army veteran dad what a warrant officer was and he said "they're an officer, but they specialise in doing basically one job."

Question: Why would the AF never approve it?  Because they don't have them?  They don't have Flight Officers either.

Even the USPHS has approved warrant grades, though none have been appointed yet.

I am an advocate of a formal NCO corps because it gives an alternative to senior members who would prefer that structure and may not have the desire or motivation ot be officers.

No argument here.

How many times have you run into career second or first lieutenants?

Pilots in senior squadrons.

It's almost like those cadets who never progress beyond a Mitchell Award.

Or who don't even make it that far because they've inexplicably been convinced that going past C/CMSgt is somehow "uncool."  I see that too much with cadets.

I've also seen cadets who almost drop off the radar when they get their Mitchell, because they have only got it to get E-3 in the AF.

At the same time, back in the late 1940s (according to the old CAP Training Manual (1949) that I have and guard, we once had a Officers Training Corps.

Instead of debating the return of NCOs as anything other than a system involving former military NCOs, what would happen if we re-created the OTC, rolling the flight officer program into it, and then using that six months to aggressively ramp up mission training and the officer basic course into some sort of training academy. We do that with cadets at weekend leadership schools, why not senior members. For those senior members who do not meet the age requirements, there might be a model of progression that could be translated to officer rank.

I'd still prefer an enlisted/NCO corps, and a warrant officer option, but the idea has merit.

I remember when I did SLS and CLC back in 1994.  Neither were an easy ride back then and graduation for showing up was not guaranteed.

[Flying Pig]

Cyborg
I think warrants in general in the military are like that, mainly because there are so relatively few of them.  Except for Army Aviators, they're generally former NCO's who have proven themselves above-and-beyond in their chosen speciality/MOS.  I believe one must reach E-7 in the Army/USN/USCG/USMC to even be considered for the grade.  I've never figured out, though, how (or why) the Navy juggles both warrants and LDO's.

In the Marines you have to have at least 13 years and be an E6 to qualify for WO.  Not sure about the Army.  When I was in the Army (yes, I was in the Army also) I never had any contact with WO's.  Ive seen that episode of Ba Ba Black Sheep also.  The interesting thing though, is that it is a new career path.  I dont know that you would be demoted back to your last enlisted rank.  It would be like demoting a 2LT down to an enlisted grade.  Because think about it.  You get promoted from E-8 to WO1, some E-7 took your E-8 slot.  So I dont know how realistic that episode was.  Ive never heard of a WO being demoted.  Of course, you know the WWII Marine Corps was probably a vastly different animal than the HR/Admin world of today in the military. 

flyboy1
How many times have you run into career second or first lieutenants?
In regards to career 1Lts.  Yeah, I was a career 1LT and a pilot.  I imagine if there was no aviation, I dont know that I would have stayed around long.  However, my first 5-6 years as a Senior Member I wasnt even a pilot.  I was in Cadet Programs.  But like I have said before, Ive held pretty much every slot there is up to and including SQCC.  So to me.... being a career 1LT and a pilot wasnt an issue because I was still contributing to the program.  I was not interested in climbing the CAP ladder.   While I was the CC, I was promoted to Captain as a result of being the commander.  Again, it was a nice, but nothing changed.  I was still plugging along.  So personally I never saw really any benefit to pursuing PD. If I was going to volunteer MORE time to CAP, it was going to be something that had to do with me becoming a better Mission Pilot.  So the idea that I was in CAP just to fly?  Ehhhh, yeah.... sorta..... but I was also doing the behind the scenes work.  Fortunately I had a Deputy who was really the puppet master behind the scenes.  He is now the SqCC.  I understood, and told my people "CAP doesnt just happen.  If you want to enjoy the bennies, your going to earn them"  I had a couple people join, buy all the uniforms, and then after a year or so, quite CAP because myself and my DC wouldnt let them touch the plane because the only times we saw them was if there was flying to be had.  No thanks... we dont need you. 

[docbiochem33]

Flying Pig,
  I was prior service Regular Army and an E-4 when I got out.  The National Guard recruiter asked me if I had some college and I told him I did.  When we went through all the classes at the time he asked me if I wanted to go to WOCS.  I would have been a WO in a short time, but I was not interested.  It would have been too hard to be in and going to school and working 40 hours a week.  I turned it down, but I did find out through it that you didn't have to be any more than an E-4 with almost an AA degree and you could be a WO.

[SARDOC]

I'm not sure if they still have the program and offer it the same way. In the past you could join the army specifically for the Warrant Officer candidate Program...Specifically for the Aviation guys.  The process was pass the testing, get accepted into the program, go to basic training, afterwards you immediately go to Warrant Officer candidate school getting paid as an E-5 the entire time, Graduate WOCS Become a WO1 and go to Fort Rucker and learn to fly a helicopter.  Every service has different programs so it depends on the needs of the service and the mission what kind of experience they need for that advancement.

[MSG Mac]

re: the reduction in grade from WO to prior enlisted grade. I've seen it in a WO2 who was passed over for WO3 and was reappointed as a SFC/E-7. I've also seen a few COL/O-6's who were timed and were appointed W2, until their retirements.

[Flying Pig]

A Colonel to WO2?  What the heck was that all about??

[SarDragon]

I know, in the Navy, that if an LDO doesn't have 10 years as an officer when he hits his retirement point, he reverts to his highest enlisted or WO rank at retirement, but gets paid for the highest rank honorably held. Makes little sense to me, but that's the system.

[ColonelJack]

Interesting discussion about reducing officers' grade.  The following happened quite some time ago and my memory of the conversation may be hazy, but this is what I recall:

Back when I was working in radio, the husband of one of our sales people told me that he accepted an early retirement from the Air Force during a RIF.  The way he put it (he was a lieutenant colonel), he was basically informed that he had a choice - he could retire early as an O-5, or stay in and finish his time, but he'd do it as a SMSgt.  He'd get an O-5's retirement pay, but the last two or three years of his career, he'd be a senior NCO.  He opted for the early retirement.

Jack

[MSG Mac]

A Colonel to WO2?  What the heck was that all about??

re: the reduction in grade from WO to prior enlisted grade. I've seen it in a WO2 who was passed over for WO3 and was reappointed as a SFC/E-7. I've also seen a few COL/O-6's who were timed and were appointed W2, until their retirements.

O-6's can serve  for a maximum of 5 years or 35 years total service, which ever comes first, unless they are selected for promotion. A WO can serve until until 60 (or more). Therefore if they wanted to stay on and were given the option they could get it. Their was a general (Walker?) in the 60's who had a public dispute with the Kennedy administration and resigned from the Army saying he wouldn't retire, because he had money of his pwn and wouldn't apply for retirement. About 10 years later he decided to retire and was brought back on duty for 1 day as a CW2 to retire as a MG.

[SarDragon]

Now that I think about it, I can think of two other instances of "O" to "E" reductions.

I worked with an AF SSgt back in the '70s whose AFSC (or whatever the officer version is) was downsized, and he either had to take a RIF, with no bennies (nowhere near close enough to retirement), or take a reduction in rank, from Capt to SSgt, and stay for his 20.

At my last command before I retired, we had an E-7 who reverted from O-2 when he bailed from the LDO Aviator Program.