Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[abdsp51]

I would like to see NCO grades returned because it would also mirror the cadet programs.  It would teach them about the importance of the NCO and for those going into the service it would also show them the role of NCO's.

While I am neither for or against CAP NCOs as there is a program for it and have had the privilege of going through SLS with one.  You can teach the importance of being an NCO without having them present. 

I am an AD NCO, CAP officer and was a prior cadet and out of all of those it is my AD experience I bring to the table and how I conduct business.  Many of the cadets have seen me in both CAP uniform and AF uniform and enjoy the aspect that I bring that AD experience to the table.  Do I always have an answer no, but I provide my input and let those who make the decisions make them and I then support it.  Most of the SMs I interacted with as a cadet were either AD or prior service and were all predominately enlisted. 

We have a NCO program I think we just need to reevaluate it and provide a clearer understanding of the program.

[PHall]

I've done the NCO thing in CAP for a couple of years. Went back to my Officer grade because it caused just too many problems.
And I'm not the only NCO in CAWG to come to this conclusion either...

[ol'fido]

If you are looking for a "model" for a CAP NCO corps, I would suggest you look at the organizational structure and working dynamic of the U.S. Army Special Forces. Here you have mostly NCOs working with and for officers without having to have junior enlisted men for the sergeants to lead around. It's true that on Mobile Training Team deployments, these NCO's may train, advise, counsel, and in some cases lead indigenous personnel, but normally, these foreign troops have their own chain of command and leadership structure just like our cadets have their own separate and distinct chain and structure.

In the workings of an ODA, you have a Captain, a CWO, an E-8 Team Sergeant, and 9 E-7s, E-6s, and E-5s. There is no one there in the junior enlisted ranks(E-4 and below) normally. The institutional memory of the team resides with the CWO and the Team Sergeant. These two individuals will normally be assigned to the same team for several years. The detachment commander will normally be there for one short tour before moving up to a staff position withing the SF company, battalion, or group. You will find very little of the caste system and "aloofness" between these officers and the NCOs. Many of the NCOs are highly educated and in any other branch would probably be officer material, but they choose to stay "operational".

I think that this model would work well for CAP. This idea that officers should be aloof, looking at the big picture all the time, and are of a higher "caste" than NCOs is laughable. Reminds me of the character Courtney Massengale from the novel "Once an Eagle". As other people have pointed out, there are good NCOs and bad ones just like there are good and bad officers. We can all come up with "war stories" of the guy that was a sergeant 20 or 30 years ago that's going to get his stripes in CAP and show us all "How the real Air Force done it!". But for every one of those stories there are probably more of good solid NCOs who are leaders no matter what rank they wear. Leadership is leadership. The rank on your collar or sleeve impresses me less than the set of you eyes and the steel in your carriage.

[spacecommand]

Others would like to see NCO grades returned because they do not want to be in a command position.

There's nothing that says just because you are a CAP officer you have to be in a "command position" to begin with.  Not to mention if you were offered one (which can happen as an NCO) you can say "no".  This is CAP, you have a choice on what you want to and not want to do (most of the time).   There are many CAP staff positions that do not require one to be in command. 

In the end you have to stop comparing the two structures. 

I know retired military NCOs and Officers  in my unit who decided to just go through the CAP PD program "just like any other member from scratch" and opted not to go with their prior military NCO or prior officer grade. 

[RiverAux]

We have a NCO program

Actually, we don't.  We have NCO grades but there isn't a program.  It would be like saying that we have an accounting programs because CPAs can get a certain CAP rank when they join.  That is the current situation.

Now, if we actually want to develop a real NCO program that has some purpose behind it (which may not actually be possible given the way CAP works), that would be something new.

[Flying Pig]

20+ yrs in CAP and held just about every slot from asst trash can emptier up to and including Sq CC and I was never in a position where my rank was anything other than a decoration on my shoulder.  It was always the position held.  There was no authority just because someone outranked someone else.  Yeah, it shows your level of PD, but Ive met LTC's who hadnt done anything in CAP except take PD courses and hang out who needed my signature to get things done.  Heck, even grounded a LTC CAP pilot.  Asa 10yr 1st Lt I was running a Sq with 2 brand new G1000 182's and managed a Region Sq of Distinction award.   So this argument over what symbol you choose to wear on your shirt is nothing more than another uniform discussion.

[JeffDG]

Thank God we're not a government agency, otherwise you'd have had to spend some time as the senior deputy assistant trash can emptier.

[Eclipse]

Thank God we're not a government agency, otherwise you'd have had to spend some time as the senior deputy assistant trash can emptier.

Senior Deputy Assistant to the Trash Can Emptier

[Garibaldi]

Thank God we're not a government agency, otherwise you'd have had to spend some time as the senior deputy assistant trash can emptier.

Senior Deputy Assistant to the Trash Can Emptier

Senior Deputy Assistant to the Trash Can Emperor

[SARDOC]

Now, if we actually want to develop a real NCO program that has some purpose behind it (which may not actually be possible given the way CAP works), that would be something new.

Why not just an entire enlisted rank structure?


Make rank in Civil Air Patrol actually reflect their positional authority.  Make it so that members that actually participate in the organization actually get advanced in the program while others that just joined so they can hang out with their child who is a cadet...just kinda stays as an airman.

I know this is opening a can of worms but with an organization as large as ours we could make a viable enlisted corps and a viable officer corps.  Since our positions are not actually tied to funding we can have some overlap and can use rank to recognize those who actually contribute to our mission.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Who becomes an NCO? Who becomes an officer?

Do we make everyone w/o a college degree an NCO?

Do we make 18 y/o members NCOs?

Can the PHD, 30 year veteran Colonel join as an NCO?

I know we don't know WHAT they plan on doing (if anything), but really, how do we factor this in? How did it work in the past?

[Eclipse]

Why not just an entire enlisted rank structure?

Because a volunteer organization cannot support the separation of duties between managers and doers that the NCO - Officer relationship represents.

You'd be better off increasing the expectations for Officer grade which would suppress the number of people who would ever exceed Lt.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't get why so many say we cannot have an enlisted rank structure when we had one from CAP's inception.

I've seen very old rank charts duplicating the Air Force structure from Airman to Master Sergeant.

I remember when I joined CAP and described it to my Army veteran dad...he said "sounds like you have more Chiefs than Indians."

[Eclipse]

Can we have one? 

Yes.

Is there a point?  No.


If we're talking about putting real authority behind grade, that's a different conversation, but if we're going to do it just so some people
can wear stripes instead of bars, the effort is wasted.

Enlisted personnel have much different roles, responsibilities, and expectations then officers - that separation doesn't exist in CAP.
Could a Chief command a unit?  If the answer is "yes", then we've missed the point.

This is a much better idea:
http://captalk.net/index.php?action=post;quote=199086;topic=10904.0;num_replies=153;e0e916a=be452a0266d74ecce514e25f66ee447d
assuming, again, you put the weight of authority and responsibility behind the grade.

Want to be a Major?  Fine - do this, that, and the other, take on these responsibilities, and if you fail, turn in the oaks.
I'd sign that.

[Private Investigator]

I remember when I joined CAP and described it to my Army veteran dad...he said "sounds like you have more Chiefs than Indians."

When I was first recruited as a senior member, being a Veteran, that was my first thought   

[flyboy53]

Having been probably one of the last real CAP NCOs -- 1973 was when I traded technical sergeant stripes for Warrent Officer 1 -- and now being a retired AF Master Sergeant, I find the lack of NCOs in this program very lacking. Everyone's a chief of some sort and cadets really only get an idea of what an NCO does from other cadets.

I wish this level of leadership was came back. I know why it failed the last time. People would join from off the street and be instant master sergeants. The recruiting or good-old-boy tactic drew the ire of the NCOs of all services and the decision to end the program came from the CSAF or Air Staff.

However, former NCOs who join the program and prefer to retain their enlisted rank are handicapped in this program because they have to achieve the same professional development as CAP officers; yet their function is very different.

In another string on this forum, a former cadet was essentially complaining because as a Mitchell Award recipient and pilot, he was a one level in the promotion system, while former officers were coming in at higher ranks. Having CAP NCOs creates another level of leadership and would make that officer rank mean a little more.

What would it hurt.

[RiverAux]

However, former NCOs who join the program and prefer to retain their enlisted rank are handicapped in this program because they have to achieve the same professional development as CAP officers; yet their function is very different.

Actually, their function is exactly the same as CAP officers under the current system -- thats the problem -- they don't serve any useful purpose under the current system and its not clear how CAP would actually function differently with a real NCO program unless our senior membership increased 10-fold.   

Now, if all we want to do is to get rid of the "all chiefs" issue and start all CAP senior members as airman and have everyone work their way up through the ranks we could certainly do that.  It would cut back on the number of officers as most members wouldn't progress that far (based on how many move up in the officer ranks available now).  Not sure how it would really do anything other than change the appearance of things.  We'd just end up with all our staff officer jobs filled by NCOs rather than officers. 

[coudano]

In my view the current program is there so that enlisted members who join CAP who are really proud of their military rank and achievements (as they should be) can carry them across to CAP.  In that regard, it's kind of a feel good measure.

End of the day, I don't _REALLY_ care if you are a CAP Lt Col, MSgt, or SMWOG; so much as I care about whether you are dependably handling some share of the load of running the squadron.

However, I think it is a mistake to create a massive dual-class system in CAP.
If you aren't creating a dual class system with real differences of authority, then it's just more 'feel good' measure stuff, which is so inane that this whole discussion might as well be about what color bows to add to the uniform next (yes, quite seriously missing the point).  Do we need an NCO structure to do a better job of accomplishing CAP's missions that we are doing without one?  In my opinion, no.


Finally, quite frankly, I question that a senior member off the street without prior military experience, basic training, several years as junior enlisted, and enlisted PME, is likely to meet NCO professionalism standards.  This is ultimately likely to actually undermine the image of the NCO overall, which is certainly going to irritate some people out there in the world.

[Eclipse]

End of the day, I don't _REALLY_ care if you are a CAP Lt Col, MSgt, or SMWOG; so much as I care about whether you are dependably handling some share of the load of running the squadron.

If you aren't creating a dual class system with real differences of authority, then it's just more 'feel good' measure stuff, which is so inane that this whole discussion might as well be about what color bows to add to the uniform next (yes, quite seriously missing the point).  Do we need an NCO structure to do a better job of accomplishing CAP's missions that we are doing without one?  In my opinion, no.

This is really the core of the discussion, and we have to also be careful of the opposite unintended consequence - the idea that being an NCO
in CAP would somehow releave members of the responsibility of carrying their corner - an idea that pops up on here regularly.  "If they just want to
do 'x', then they can be NCOs or warrants and ignore PD".   That's a bad idea at our current manpower levels.

We have some people who would actually stand up and make the case that CAP grade has no relevance, and then in the next sentence argue
that instituting NCO grades in CAP would make a difference.  You can't have it both ways, and the stripes don't necessarily give
anyone any special "force powers" in a CAP context.  If they did, then the thousands of prior and current military officers already in CAP would be  shaping and guiding the organization in much more substantial ways.  Some do, plenty just like to fly or come to meetings.

The fact of the matter is that you bring to CAP what you bring, regardless of where those abilities came from - military, private sector, government service, whatever, and like any other job, your skills and experience are either relevant and applicable, or they aren't.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Now, if all we want to do is to get rid of the "all chiefs" issue and start all CAP senior members as airman and have everyone work their way up through the ranks we could certainly do that.  It would cut back on the number of officers as most members wouldn't progress that far (based on how many move up in the officer ranks available now).  Not sure how it would really do anything other than change the appearance of things.  We'd just end up with all our staff officer jobs filled by NCOs rather than officers.

Would that include pilots?  I'm trying to envision an E-2 pilot.

Finally, quite frankly, I question that a senior member off the street without prior military experience, basic training, several years as junior enlisted, and enlisted PME, is likely to meet NCO professionalism standards.  This is ultimately likely to actually undermine the image of the NCO overall, which is certainly going to irritate some people out there in the world.

Your point is well taken.  However, the exact same thing could be said for the current "almost-all-officer" system.  The public and military expect a certain level of competence out of even a butter-bar second looie.  We just basically give them that for showing up for six months.

A system where most would come in off the street as slicksleeve E-1's, where they would have to work their way up through things like (perhaps) modified SLS, CLC etc. (CAP-centric PME type courses), TIG, etc. would eliminate a lot of what you're talking about.

There is one significant flaw to the current system of letting NCO's keep their stripes.

I believe a Senior Airman can keep their stripes in CAP.

A Senior Airman is not an NCO.

It made sense when the AF still had buck sergeants, but not now.