Cadet Membership Upper Age Change?

[RADIOMAN015]

The more I look at this the cadet ages, I'm not to keen in keeping individuals as cadets when they reach 18 years old.   Especially if they haven't progressed to the CAP cadet officer ranks (Mitchell Award).    One might also keep the up or out 19 years old (Earhart Award), 20 years old (Eaker Award), up to 21 years old (Spatz award only).

Also if a cadet at age 18 years old is no longer attending an institute of higher education and is in the civilian work force, I'm not so sure they should be staying as a cadet past 18, OR when they complete their advanced education (if before 21 years old).

Comments?  :angel:
RM   

[Майор Хаткевич]

Those of us who go to college away from a CAP unit, effectively remove ourselves. But is it nice to have the choice to participate in the summer? You bet.

[PhoenixRisen]

And your reasoning is?

Not wanting to keep around Cadets who don't progress is one thing (and IIRC, the 52-16 requires at least two achievements a year to stay in the program), but this:

The more I look at this the cadet ages, I'm not to keen in keeping individuals as cadets when they reach 18 years old.

Why?  Are we magically less productive when we reach that magic number?  I'll be 18 in three days.  I'm currently studying for my Earhart; I started the process to charter and am the cadet commander of my squadron.  I'm about to head off to the National Flight Academy, and am looking forward to the final three years of my cadet career, but I guess there's something wrong with that...

You'd be taking away the opportunity to progress in the program for a cadet who came in towards their later teen years.  And the argument that "all of those who come in that late leave the program after one or two acheivements" (or anything similar) is BS.

Also if a cadet at age 18 years old is no longer attending an institute of higher education and is in the civilian work force, I'm not so sure they should be staying as a cadet past 18, OR when they complete their advanced education (if before 21 years old).

Again, why?    Isn't one of the things we try and pass off to our cadets how to be productive members of society?  If said cadet is successfully making his way in the work force, and decides that higher education isn't for him, why terminate him?  Seems a bit counter-productive to our mission....

[Eclipse]

Non-concur.

I would be in favor of changing things so that cadets over 18 could self-supervise and close all that nonsense, but otherwise
a cadet is a cadet.

You would be effectively closing off recruiting to anyone over about 16.

[DrJbdm]

another bad idea.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Don't forget that we have a lot of 18 yos still in high school. Unless their birthday is before October, most kids turn 18 while in their senior year.  If we kicked them out at 18, a lot woudl still be in high school adn also remove their graduadtion summer from their oppurtunity to do CAP cadet activities.  Heck, I went to IACE the summer after I graduated.

Also, what problem has arisen that makes cadets over 18 a bad idea?

[Fuzzy]

Guys, troll.

[Chief2009]

Not wanting to keep around Cadets who don't progress is one thing (and IIRC, the 52-16 requires at least two achievements a year to stay in the program), but this:

Incorrect,

Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program

Emphasis mine

[a2capt]

I'm glad there's a lot of years of thought into CAPR 52-16.

While I feel a bit for the ones that start at 16 or so, there is still plenty of time for them to get the Mitchell Award.  They may have to put up with "crap" from younger ones for a little while, however- being older it's usually a bit easier to explain things to them and tell them "just put up with it", and the opposite, they'll not have to put up with much as they may just "get it" faster. Sure, you have to go to encampment as a basic, but if you have your uniform squared away, you play the game with making up your rack, stacking the socks, etc., you don't give those "mean" flight sergeants, element leaders, etc., much to get in your face about.

If they have their mind made up, and that Mitchell on the horizon, knowing what it can bring them in the Air Force, then they probably will just grin and bear it, too.

[vmstan]

Radioman, do you just spend your days coming up with oddball ideas to change everything about CAP?

Nothing really magical happens when they turn 18 that should qualify or disqualify them for anything. The same probably goes for 21, but I understand the need to have a cutoff somewhere. The current process works fine and I think is actually preferable to say, the Boy Scouts, where after 18 you're pretty much shoved out of the program.

[ZigZag911]

As I've stated repeatedly elsewhere on the board, we need clearer separation between the younger 12-14/15 y. o. cadets) and the older ones.

I don't agree with Radioman's approach...too complex, for one reason...but it's a step in the right direction.

[jimmydeanno]

Honestly,  I have never had any issues with cadet's age.  In reality, the number of 17+ new cadets is almost nill because they've already found different sports and organizations to spend their time with.  The cadets in the 16+ range are typically brought up from the 12-13 year old range and act in the cadet staff positions.  IME, the balance works out really well.

12-13 year olds are typically in flight cadets.
13-14 year olds are typically flight sergeants.
14-15 year olds are typically flight commanders or first sergeants.
15-16 year olds are usually in some sort of support staff function or C/DC or C/XO
17+ usually end up being our Cadet Commanders.

Even then, sometimes the shift is a bit upwards if it works that way. 

Either way, I've never had a problem with motivation because a younger person was "in charge" of an older one. 

[the_T]

I am an 18 y/o cadet, there is no reason why I should be kicked out of the program because of my age. There has never been any problems between myself or any younger cadets. Also I didn't get my mitchell until after I had been 18 for 6 months, I was still active, but just took my time getting my mitchell. Eliminating everyone over the age of 18 would do more harm to the program than good. Older cadets are the cadet that set examples for younger cadets and also help the younger cadets to mature.

I have been in CAP since Jan of 05 (yes i took my super sweet time promoting but i've gained alot of knowledge) and I was 13 when I joined, I can still remember the cadets I looked up to and they were all 18 and over, and in college. I was no where near them in maturity level, but it motivated me to "grow up" a bit and strive to do more in the wing in hopes of being like them one day. I don't know how things are in other wings but just in my own wing I would say that 95% of all cadets over the age of 18 have been in the program since they were 14. Because of that we have a better understanding of the program than someone whose only 16 and joined when they were 14, and can pass down our years of knowledge and experience to other cadets.

Eliminating that bracket of cadets would severely hinder the cadet program, and furthermore I personally believe that to be a form of discrimination. Telling someone that they can no longer be a cadet just because they turned 18, and before you all jump on me I believe this to be different than the 21 rule. At age 18 most people are in college, and still live with there parents, or living in a dorm, and they still stay with their parents during the summer. At age 18 your considered a "mini adult" if you will. While at age 21, you are a "full adult", you gain the ability to drink and also more responsibility is placed on you because its a different mind set than turning 18, if that makes sense to anyone else but me. This is the way I see things, I think that cutting out cadets from 18-21 would be a horrible idea.

[Fly Boy]

As I've stated repeatedly elsewhere on the board, we need clearer separation between the younger 12-14/15 y. o. cadets) and the older ones.

That would probably work best at encampments and the like. When you get down to the squadron level, we might have an extremely different situation. We might have say, 3 little 12 year old cadets, and 16 16-year-old cadets. And to add on to that, the little cadets would feel left out.

If only we could design a maturity test. That way the mare mature cadets could go and talk about whatever and not have to worry about the 12 year old hearing and telling their parents/guardians what they heard at CAP that meeting that night.

I regularly see cadets that are 16 who join just to put it on a collage application or for a job interview. Those are the cadets that need to advance, to help them get their ROTC Scholarship or get whatever job they want. I myself am a 15 year-old cadet and I started when I was 12. I believe that becoming a cadet has shaped me throughout those 3, almost 4 years. And I plan to stay a cadet (unless forced to change) during collage and that should be the choice every cadet should make if they stay in CAP that 18-21 age bracket. 

Well, That's the end of my rant.

[PhoenixRisen]

If only we could design a maturity test. That way the mare mature cadets could go and talk about whatever and not have to worry about the 12 year old hearing and telling their parents/guardians what they heard at CAP that meeting that night.

Uh - sorry, but no.  How about refraining from talking about inappropriate things no matter who's around you, while at a CAP activity?  If you're "going off to talk about whatever, and not having to worry", your squadron leadership needs some lessons on how to keep cadets busy.  "Maturity tests" should be the least of your worries.

[Fly Boy]

If only we could design a maturity test. That way the mare mature cadets could go and talk about whatever and not have to worry about the 12 year old hearing and telling their parents/guardians what they heard at CAP that meeting that night.

Uh - sorry, but no.  How about refraining from talking about inappropriate things no matter who's around you, while at a CAP activity?  If you're "going off to talk about whatever, and not having to worry", your squadron leadership needs some lessons on how to keep cadets busy.  "Maturity tests" should be the least of your worries.

I'm sorry, that's a bad example. I just believe that maturity in the cadet should always be a consideration. Anyway, back to the reason this thread was created

[lordmonar]

Okay....I've said this before.....and got shot down for it.

I too think we have a problem with the over 18 cadets.....but I don't see the problem as being big enough to actually change the CAP Cadet Program over.

My basic premise is that cadets are by definition (in a CAP context) are children.  But we blur the lines when you have someone who is a legal adult in every other context but is still considered a a child by CAP rules and regulations.

Tie this in with the Flight Officer issue and you optional status of those over 18 it creates a lot of confusion.

Having said that.......in order to "fix" this "problem" would require a major rewrite of the cadet program and a major shift in a lot of our paradigms that are, frankly, just not worth the effort.

The program works.....not perfectly, but it works.

[ZigZag911]

While LordMonar's point is correct -- it would be quite a project re-tooling CP -- something needs to be done; at the very least, someone should study the situation...I admit my evidence is entirely observational and anecdotal.

[Майор Хаткевич]

While LordMonar's point is correct -- it would be quite a project re-tooling CP -- something needs to be done; at the very least, someone should study the situation...I admit my evidence is entirely observational and anecdotal.

Does anyone have any statistics on how many 19-20 year old cadets there are? I'm pretty sure I'm in a VERY small minority.

And even if there is a drop between 18 and 19, how many are active?

[Pingree1492]

Wow... this topic does recycle itself a lot.  Instead of making a new post, here's what I had to say in June 2008 about the subject (and my opinion still hasn't changed):

    The cadet program needs to end at 18, period.

I completely disagree with this, from several angles.  Here goes:

First; I was a cadet that choose to stay in the program until I was 21.  I did this for several reasons, but mostly because as a cadet I could still receive primary flight training in CAP aircraft, but as a senior (even a Flight Officer) I couldn't.  I was able to receive CAP Flight Scholarships, and earn my private pilot license.

Second point, I joined as a cadet when I was 12 (almost 13).  I earned my Spaatz award when I was 18.  About 3/4 of the really cool things I did as a cadet, and the biggest life lessons I learned from the program came AFTER I had gotten my Spaatz Award (and its not like I wasn't active before I got it).  Yes, it was a little weird being a Ground Team Leader and having to have a Senior Member "babysitter" with me, but I was able to work well with said senior member BECAUSE of the training I received in the Cadet Program.  Learning how to work with people in awkward situations like that has also been a huge help in what I've done later in CAP as well as in life.

Thirdly, it is each individuals choice as to what he/she wants to do once he/she hits that magic 18 number.  My choice to stay a cadet was one of the best I ever made in CAP.  However, there are two FO's in my squadron right now that the decision to turn senior was probably one of the best ones they made.  The choice is there for a reason; each individual has different priorities and wants different things from the program, we need to make sure that each person has an option that will fit what they want and what the unit needs the best.

My fourth point, now speaking as the Deputy Commander for Cadets of a large squadron, I currently have 3 cadets over 18 that are active in my squadron.  One is going after his Spaatz, two others just recently joined.  Before they joined, I laid out what their options were as either a senior member or a cadet.  Both choose to become cadets so that they could learn to fly in CAP aircraft, and be eligible for a wider variety of CAP Flight Scholarships.  All three are also currently working on their Scanner/Observer ratings, and participating actively in the program.  I've had zero problems with the two 18 year olds being led by a flight sergeant who is 14.  I'm fortunate in that I have a mature cadet staff, as well as mature 18 year olds who know what my expectations for their behavior are, and they have yet to fail to completely impress me with their performance.

Finally, there already exists a program to give former cadets more credit to completing senior member professional development criteria once they reach the dark side.  For those that haven't seen that yet, log onto eServices and look at the interim change letter from 5 Jun 08 posted there.  This gets rid of the need for an "OTC" program, etc.

To address this issue:

    "The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions . . . "
    "The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old. "
    "I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children."
    which leads to "angst and Knuckel-biting ."

I've learned that what you get out of CAP is what you put into it.  If you're an over 18 cadet who resents some of the restrictions placed on cadets in the regs, then turn senior or stop complaining.  If you resent getting treated like a child by other senior members, guess what, it won't get better once you're a senior!!  I'm personally young enough to be the grandchild of many of the other seniors that I work with on a routine basis.  But personally, I've had almost no problems as either a cadet or a senior with this.  If you conduct yourself in a mature manner, you generally won't have a problem.

So please, to repeat what's been said numerous times already, lets not fix something that's not broken.  Sorry for the rant, but this is an issue that is obviously very near and dear to my heart.