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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« on: November 12, 2006, 10:21:29 PM »

Just a reminder that Civil Air Patrol has and uses official grade abbreviations for both senior members (officers) and cadets.

Senior Member abbreviations are outlined in CAPR 35-5, CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS as follows:

a. Senior Member grades are:
1) Major General (Maj Gen)
2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
3) Colonel (Col)
4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
5) Major (Maj)
6) Captain (Capt)
7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

b. CAP flight officer grades are:
1) Senior Flight Officer (SFO)
2) Technical Flight Officer (TFO)
3) Flight Officer (FO)

c. CAP NCO grades are:
1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
6) Sergeant (Sgt)

Cadet grades are structured in CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management, in Figure 2-3 and the use of these abbreviations is regulated by Section 2-4, h.

Cadet Airman Basic (C/AB)
Cadet Airman (C/Amn)
Cadet Airman First Class (C/A1C)
Cadet Senior Airman (C/SrA)
Cadet Staff Sergeant (C/SSgt)
Cadet Technical Sergeant (C/TSgt)
Cadet Master Sergeant (C/MSgt)
Cadet Senior Master Sergeant (C/SMSgt)
Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (C/CMSgt)
Cadet Second Lieutenant (C/2d Lt)
Cadet First Lieutenant (C/1st Lt)
Cadet Captain (C/Capt)
Cadet Major (C/Maj)
Cadet Lieutenant Colonel (C/Lt Col)
Cadet Colonel (C/Col)


Note that CAP does not use other abbreviations, such as Army-style rank (2LT or CPT, etc.), nor do cadet grades utilize a lower case "C" such as c/AB - both common mistakes I see.

I thought I would point this out and post this as a permanent reference.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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SarDragon
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 04:12:14 AM »

And, for those folks who wil now bring up the abbreviations seen in various databases and reports, save your time and your reply. These stem from an economy of bits and bytes situation in programming and storing said databases.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 08:13:22 PM »

If anyone's interested, you can find rank abbreviations for all services here.

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
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afgeo4
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 04:42:18 PM »

FYI:

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Army and Marine grade of Sgt (E-5) is equal to Air Force SSgt (E-5) and thus the Air Force equivalent is worn on CAP uniforms.
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GEORGE LURYE
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 05:27:05 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.
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Mike Johnston
Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 06:23:31 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.

Our grades are not USAF grades.  If they were, CAP would have eliminated warrant/flight officer grades when the USAF abandoned the warrant officers back in the 1950s. 

As Mike said, take a look at CAPR 35-5.  This is not a case of an outdated regulation simply needing updating.  CAP has Sergeants.

In some branches, an E-4 may very well be a Non-Commissioned Officer; in the Army and Marines, a Corporal (E-4) may be an NCO.  Since CAP allows for all former military NCOs to have NCO status in Civil Air Patrol, not just former Air Force, there needs to be an E-4 NCO grade in CAP.  "Three-stripers" senior members in CAP are Sergeants, not Senior Airmen.  The chart above is correct as originally posted. 

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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 06:30:49 PM »

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.

CAPR 35-5 has a publication date of August 2004.   According to a question posted in the Knowledgebase:


"CAP NCO rank from prior military service
 
  Question
  I would like to keep my NCO rank from prior Air Force service. I was a SGT. E-4. Now that Sgt has been eliminated, can I wear the SSgt rank?
 
  Answer
  No. See Section F (below) of CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS

CAP members have the option of wearing the highest enlisted grade earned from prior military service. CAP grade must be equivalent to prior service grade (Army or Navy E-6 would be Tech Sergeant). In this case AF equivalent for E-4 is senior airman. Equivalent for E-5 is SSgt. See Section F below for procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades."


So it would seem that either the regulation is wrong/hasn't been updated or the Knowledge Base is wrong.

This stuff makes my head hurt.  I'm happy and content to let all Senior Member enlisted folks be NCOs...they've earned it!
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 06:49:06 PM »

So it would seem that either the regulation is wrong/hasn't been updated or the Knowledge Base is wrong.

Neither.  The Knowledgebase simply said the AF equivalent of E-4 is Senior Airman.  In CAP, the equivalent grade available to current and former NCO E-4's is Sergeant. 

There's no confusion, the regulation is very clear.  If the knowledgebase did, however, at any point post something stating otherwise, it would be the knowledgebase that was wrong.  The KB is merely the responses of staff members who are not always 100% versed on all of CAP's regulations; the regulations themselves are the final and authoritative source.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 12:26:29 PM »

Negative... I would still disagree with the KB Question. The KB is confusing #1 albeit:

Question
  I would like to keep my NCO rank from prior Air Force service. I was a SGT. E-4. Now that Sgt has been eliminated , can I wear the SSgt rank?

The question states that the person was a SGT from prior AIR FORCE service. Unless this question was meant to address the olden days rank of "Buck Sergeant" E-4, this doesn't make sense since SGT isn't currently a rank in the Air Force. The question was "worded" in such a way to address the issue of what an E-4 in the Air Force promotes to... Although I understand the importance of recognizing other services besides the Air Force. This question is directed towards the Air Force rank structure, and doesn't make sense.

Therefore, the answer isn't clear either since the question was meant to address the issue of an Air Force Grade of E-4. The answer would make MUCH more sense, if it were stated in a way that says, "No. Regardless of branch of service, the Grade of E-4 is equivalent to the Rank of SGT in Civil Air Patrol." Cut and dry.

So no... it isn't clear as day as you suggest.
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MIKE
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 12:36:11 PM »

I think you could make the case that someone who was a Sgt (E-4) prior to the elimination of the rank in the USAF would qualify for the CAP grade of Sgt... As long as those persons were not required to revert to SrA, and loose NCO status with the change in structure.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 12:50:18 PM »

Guess I don't see what all the hub-bub is about.  Attrition solves the problem, just like it did for us in the Air Force.

Sure, there were the rare times where an E-4 sergeant got miffed because we thought he was a senior airman, but most "bucks" were accustomed to the slips (and had further motivation to test and earn SSgt.)

In the rare chance that a former AF E-4 sergeant wanted to be a CAP E-4 sergeant, c'est la vie - we'd deal with the whoopsies of confusion just like we did in the Air Force.  (It'll just take longer for the CAP E-4 sergeant to fall away from the MML, given that our folks can serve up until they die...  But as cold as it sounds, attrition solves the heartache if there really is any.)

Other branches?  "Nothing but love for you, DC3, but it's the nature of our beast - be a CAP 2d Lt in six months or be a CAP E-4 senior airman today."

Somehow, I think the UCMJ authority of NCOs and Petty Officers is essentially worthless in CAP anyway.....so it really is no big deal to fight about E-4 NCOs vs. non-NCO E-4s.

And if *prestige* is the thing holding matters up....well, vanity is very unbecoming of a leader in the first place: NCO or Officer, whether they be police, fire, CAP, NOAA, Public Health Service, or armed forces.
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DNall
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 01:03:50 PM »

Or a SrA today AND a 2Lt in six months.

No, I do think it's that the CAP reg has never been updated caus frankly, how many retired E-1 to E-4s to we see that keep their grade. I mean look around and tell me how many total NCOs you see in CAP at all. It just didn't come up.

It is true that the CAP system is technically its own thing (the AF doesn't have FOs either), but this particular issue for the Amn grades is supposed to get updated when they get around to it. It literally just got missed last time they went thru it.

The practice I've seen followed in the past & would follow myself if it came up is to appoint such members to the appropriate Amn grade. The form never leaves the Sq & they still show up as a SM at NHQ. As I said, that's almost exclusively people waiting to promote to officer grade. If they bother to wear something other than their AF uniform during that six months, I doubt it will go to the expense of ID'ing that grade, and if they do so & are seen outside the Sq almost no one will know it's not strictly correct... so the chance of me getting yelled at for what's really the right thing in spite of regs is very small.
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Tony91
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 09:09:30 PM »

I was unaware that there were senior member NCOs ive never seen any of them.
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2007, 09:46:05 PM »

They are rare, but I think CMSgt Chiafos will be working to get us some more.
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Mike Johnston
Tony91
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2007, 12:53:45 AM »

doesnt the senior members ranks start at senior member and then go flight officer, technical flight officer, senior flight officer 2nd lt. etc. so how does one become a CAP NCO?
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arajca
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2007, 02:09:22 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2007, 03:35:01 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.

When did this happen?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2007, 05:30:50 AM »

Or a SrA today AND a 2Lt in six months.

No, I do think it's that the CAP reg has never been updated caus frankly, how many retired E-1 to E-4s to we see that keep their grade. I mean look around and tell me how many total NCOs you see in CAP at all. It just didn't come up. [stuff redacted]

A small point here - you don't have to be retired to wear NCO rank in CAP. All you need is a DD-214 or equivalent to verify honorable service and the highest earned rank.

As for retiring as an E-4 or below, that has been almost impossible in all the time I've been around the military, unless it's a medical retirement. High year tenure rules force an "up or out" policy.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2007, 05:33:16 AM »

doesnt the senior members ranks start at senior member and then go flight officer, technical flight officer, senior flight officer 2nd lt. etc. so how does one become a CAP NCO?

Read CAPR 35-5 for all the info on promotions.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2007, 05:37:23 AM »

A military (Army, Navy, AF, MC, CG) NCO - active, retired, or discharged- can join CAP and keep their NCO grade if they do not want to become CAP officers. They cannot promote in CAP unless they get promoted in their service. That being said, the NB approved advanced officer grade for SNCO's. This includes NG and Reserve NCO's. IIRC, E-7 gets 1st Lt; E-8, Capt; E-9, Major, after completing Level I and CPPT.

If you're not a military NCO, you cannot become a CAP NCO.


When did this happen?

Which, the italic part, the bold part or the underlined part?

In order:

A long time ago.

Recently, probably within the last year, and maybe not ratified yet.

A long time ago.
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Dave Bowles
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Tony91
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2007, 12:12:22 PM »

what abour retired and current US armed forces officers? can they join CAP at an advanced rank?
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C/SSGT,
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2007, 12:15:13 PM »

what abour retired and current US armed forces officers? can they join CAP at an advanced rank?

Yes.  It's all in CAPR 35-5
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Mike Johnston
Tony91
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2007, 01:01:38 PM »

thank you sir.
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C/SSGT,
CAP428
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2007, 02:14:38 AM »

So, just a question of curiosity:

Why would someone not want to be a CAP Officer?  What advantages are there for not being one, or what disadvantages exist in being one that somebody would opt out of the officer choice?
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shorning
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2007, 02:25:25 AM »

Why would someone not want to be a CAP Officer?  What advantages are there for not being one, or what disadvantages exist in being one that somebody would opt out of the officer choice?

Because they can.  What benefit is there in being CAP officer?  The pay is the same...
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CAP428
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2007, 02:31:07 AM »

The pay is the same...

 :D  haha.  that made me laugh.  very true, though.
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Tony91
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2007, 09:44:52 AM »

Im payed with learning!!!  :P
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2007, 06:32:10 AM »

Im payed with learning!!!  :P

Aww...the innocence of youth :D
If only I knew then what I know now.
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C. A. Edgar
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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2007, 11:18:22 PM »

Just as a point of information, NHQ Public Affairs is urging public affairs folks to use for all PA purposes the military grade abbreviations in the AP Style book, which are different from CAP's "official" abbreviations.  Check the Volunteer for the differences...
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Psicorp
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2007, 12:30:37 AM »

Just as a point of information, NHQ Public Affairs is urging public affairs folks to use for all PA purposes the military grade abbreviations in the AP Style book, which are different from CAP's "official" abbreviations.  Check the Volunteer for the differences...

So just like on a lot of CAP forms, 1st LT is 1LT?
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
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SarDragon
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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2007, 01:10:10 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2007, 01:32:38 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.

Concur!

It's called communications.  You adjust the deliver of your message to the conditions and the listener.  Outside communications needs to conform to the standards of the receiver.  The media uses APA as their standard so we should use that as well.

What is stupid is that we don't just change our regulation to APA as well.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2007, 08:52:29 AM »

A couple of points:

In the Navy and Marines, an E-4 is a petty officer/NCO.  No question.

In the Army, a Specialist E-4 is NOT an NCO, but an E-4 Corporal is.  An NCO assigned to supervise others, such as an E-4 in an E-5 slot pending promotion, would be laterally appointed a corporal to give him UCMJ authority as an NCO.  Be careful when looking at the DD-214's.  Most Army E-4's are Specialists.

Secondly, ALL military branches use the AP stylebook in public affairs releases and publications.  In the Army, Air Force, and I think the Navy and Marines, this is established by regulation.  I'm pretty sure CAP regulations also provide for use of stylebook abbreviations as well.  If the regs are silent on it, I would follow the Air Force model and use stylebook.

When I was a PAO in the Army I had to deal with the occasional Abbreviation Nazi who would draft a formal and intimidating memorandum that I ws NOT following the appropriate regulation in rank abbreviations.  (The Army uses all 3-character rank abbreviations until you get to the general officer ranks due to the fact that there are only 3-characters allowed in the SIDPERS system).  I always liked sending them a copy of the PA reg. that provided for stylebook abbreviations in the newsmagazine.  I'd have those letters to amuse me about once or twice a year.
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Another former CAP officer
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2007, 09:03:17 PM »

And just for the record - media is the plural of medium.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2007, 03:30:33 PM »

And just for the record - media is the plural of medium.
Wait, so all these years I should have been referring to "media of communication" instead of "mediums of communication"? WoW.

Dude. That's, like, gramatically paradigm shifting.
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JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2007, 04:04:31 PM »

And just for the record - media is the plural of medium.
Wait, so all these years I should have been referring to "media of communication" instead of "mediums of communication"? WoW.

Dude. That's, like, gramatically paradigm shifting.

 ;D
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2007, 05:10:47 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.

Concur!

It's called communications.  You adjust the deliver of your message to the conditions and the listener.  Outside communications needs to conform to the standards of the receiver.  The media uses APA as their standard so we should use that as well.

What is stupid is that we don't just change our regulation to APA as well.

Just to further confuse things, AP style and APA style are not the same. AP is the documentation and notation style used by the Associated Press. APA is the style manual published by the American Psychological Association for use in a great deal of scientific research literature.
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2007, 11:39:09 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.

Concur!

It's called communications.  You adjust the deliver of your message to the conditions and the listener.  Outside communications needs to conform to the standards of the receiver.  The media uses APA as their standard so we should use that as well.

What is stupid is that we don't just change our regulation to APA as well.

Just to further confuse things, AP style and APA style are not the same. AP is the documentation and notation style used by the Associated Press. APA is the style manual published by the American Psychological Association for use in a great deal of scientific research literature.
MLA is much better than APA.
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sardak
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2007, 03:58:21 PM »

And Air University has its own style and author guide.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/style/styleguide.pdf

Mike
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2007, 06:28:37 PM »

MLA is much better than APA.

...and Chicago Manual of Style better than both of those.  ;)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2007, 06:36:49 PM »

MLA is much better than APA.

...and Chicago Manual of Style better than both of those.  ;)

Never heard of it.


Until now.


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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2007, 06:44:20 PM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

As for all the choices given above, I prefer MLA, since they have simplified many things, and gotten away from some of the arbitrary "vanity" rules from times long past.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2007, 04:09:23 AM »

Oh, no, we have to talk about common sense again.

Internally, on official paper correspondence, the grade abbreviations, as defined in the CAP reg, should be used whenever practical. Conputer generated forms may not comply because somebody got lazy and didn't think about the difference between data stored in a computer, and the paper form. Computer data storage uses the shortest practical abbreviation to minimize the number of bits and bytes in a program, and in data storage.

Externally, it may be necessary to adhere to an external set of rules that provides some better consistency among the different abbreviations.

Bottom line - it's a situational thing. Do your best to follow the reg when you can, but maintain some flexibility when the situation doesn't allow strict compliance.

Concur!

It's called communications.  You adjust the deliver of your message to the conditions and the listener.  Outside communications needs to conform to the standards of the receiver.  The media uses APA as their standard so we should use that as well.

What is stupid is that we don't just change our regulation to APA as well.

Just to further confuse things, AP style and APA style are not the same. AP is the documentation and notation style used by the Associated Press. APA is the style manual published by the American Psychological Association for use in a great deal of scientific research literature.
MLA is much better than APA.

I prefer MLA as well. Being a product of a small, ULTRA-liberal college, I wrote literally hundreds of pages worth of research, mostly on social and cultural issues. Technically, I was a performing arts major (acting) but the bulk of my personal research was in psychology, sociology, cultural and humanistic studies. The MLA was the standard my college used so I became very comfortable with it. However, it is intended (despite my college's use of it for everything) for papers written on the arts, humanities, etc. Im currently working on my MS degree in Disaster Medicine and Emergency Management and we have to use APA. Its much more intricate and a phenomenal pain in the rear. Its not really a matter of one being better than the other, its a matter of the topic you are writing on, the depth of documentation from outside sources, etc. APA isnt bad, its just more commonly used for sciences, etc
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2007, 04:12:55 AM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

For those of you may want to find this style manual, its official name is the University of Chicago Style Manual and I think its now in its 17th or 18th edition.
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2007, 04:23:59 AM »

Well, the Chicago Manual of Style is in at least its 14th Edition, and has been around since 1906.

For those of you may want to find this style manual, its official name is the University of Chicago Style Manual and I think its now in its 17th or 18th edition.

Ah, a new name. I took my title right off the cover of my 13th edition.
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2007, 04:25:31 AM »

The problem I have with CAPs "standardized" grade abbreviations is a small one, but I think it shows that the devil is in the details and a lot of details get overlooked by CAP when it is creating regulations. The thing that bothers me is the Lt. abbreviations.  For 1st Lt they use one style, that being the common one used in the United States in terms of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. But then for 2d Lt they use (and for some reason only in this abbreviation) the European/British style. Im not surprised by it, it just makes it look a little silly and I have already had peopleask me what a "2d Lt" is because that abbreviation for 2nd is not one that Americans are used to using. Doesnt really matter much though because when referring to the person in speech, whether the Lt is 1st or 2nd, he/she is usually just referred to as Lt. Same with generals and often times sergeants. Then of course, there are all the shortenings in spoken reference to Petty Officers in the sea services. Ah well....Someone told me a long time ago, when dealing with the military or a quasi-military organization, its best not to try apply logic because the final result will probably be just total confusion. Best to just embrace the quirks and lack of standardization so you dont go bug house trying to figure it all out.
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SARMedTech
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2007, 04:29:29 AM »

I humbly apologize...i combined the names of two different style guides and got myself all turned around.  Sorry about that.
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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2007, 06:01:41 PM »

(The Army uses all 3-character rank abbreviations until you get to the general officer ranks due to the fact that there are only 3-characters allowed in the SIDPERS system).
You're right about the general officer rank abbreviations of BG, MG, and GA, but you left out OC--the only other 2-letter grade abbreviation in the Army.
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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2007, 05:27:43 PM »

I probably deserve to be smacked for not only bringing this thread back up, but also for asking this question. Why do some find it horrible to not properly abbreviate rank? What is the problem fir 1LT being in place instead of 1st Lt.? Everyone gets the idea that the person is a first lieutenant. But why are so many people irritated by something so small?
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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2007, 05:31:37 PM »

Maybe because it's regulated.  Attention to detail and all.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 05:36:38 PM »

Maybe because it's regulated.  Attention to detail and all.

I understand that. I've actually gotten emails from NHQ referring to me as 1LT. Valenjevick.
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« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 07:00:36 PM »

On official written correspondence, the proper grade abbreviations are preferred for uniformity. This worked well for many years, until computers entered the picture.  Since memory was a valuable resource, not to be wasted, the abbreviations were shortened to use less memory. Now you have the CAPR 10- and 20-series rules for real written correspondence, and the shortened stuff for computer generated stuff. We should do what we can in each situation, and move forward.
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« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2007, 08:30:03 PM »

I probably deserve to be smacked for not only bringing this thread back up, but also for asking this question. Why do some find it horrible to not properly abbreviate rank? What is the problem fir 1LT being in place instead of 1st Lt.? Everyone gets the idea that the person is a first lieutenant. But why are so many people irritated by something so small?

If one cannot pay attention to the details, especially after being corrected, how can one be expected to pay attention to the more "important" stuff.

At some level, especially for members without prior service experience, CAP is one big pile of details, and those details can pile up on you quickly.

Trivial little "details" like not having a valid pilot's license (or medical), flying without the POH, or with the checklist for a different airplane, or being featured in the national spotlight nationally wearing your nametag and badges on the wrong side of your uniform.

"It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading."
- General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943


"You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valor of other men. Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?"
- General George S. Patton Jr, May 1941, in an address to officers and men of the Second Armored Division.
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« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2007, 08:40:24 PM »

I wouldn't necessarily base your leadership principles on Patton.  He was not all he was cracked up to be.

As far as the abbreviation thing, it is something the AF did to differentiate itself from the Army.  It is in the tongue and quill, but I have seen many letters and whatnot from AF people that used the Army style of grade abbreviation.  In fact, you will sometimes catch it on AF.MIL
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2007, 11:35:23 PM »

As far as the abbreviation thing, it is something the AF did to differentiate itself from the Army. 

You'd think all those big, noisy aircraft (not to mention the stealthy ones) would be sufficient differentiation!
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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2007, 12:17:27 AM »

Today was the 60th anniversery of the establishment of the Department of Defense and the services still don't use 1 system of writing  grade between the Army, Navy, and Marines. I would think that with all the forms and publications they put out someone would have decided on one.
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« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2007, 12:04:06 PM »

I actually prefer the Army method. Every grade abbreviation is completely capitalized and three letters or shorter. None of these extended abbreviations the other services use.

As for the reasons they remain different, it is politics. And technically they are different grades. Same pay scale for corresponding grades, but still different. Just look at the responsibility of each grade and how it differs by service. Just in the Army alone, a soldier's branch also affects what they will be doing at each grade. That is one reason I have been very disappointed with the phasing out of branch insignia on the ACU's. I am sorry, but a captain in the infantry is very different that a captain in the medical corps.
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« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2007, 06:38:02 PM »

What about on the CAC card.  Mine says CPT (as in Captain).  Does an AF CAC card also say CPT, as the CAC program is run through DEERS, I seriously doubt they would differentiate between the services.  So based on if it is the same abbreviation scheme by the DEERS (DOD) then that is the greenlight to use it, right?
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2007, 06:40:07 PM »

That is one reason I have been very disappointed with the phasing out of branch insignia on the ACU's. I am sorry, but a captain in the infantry is very different that a captain in the medical corps.

I agree fully!  Plus it was getting rid of over 100 years of tradition, just to make the enlisted side feel better.  At least that was the reason in Army Times back in 2003.
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Nomex Maximus
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 04:15:56 PM »

My CAP membership card identifies me as a 2LT.

so there!
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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2007, 08:14:38 PM »

What about on the CAC card.  Mine says CPT (as in Captain).  Does an AF CAC card also say CPT, as the CAC program is run through DEERS, I seriously doubt they would differentiate between the services.  So based on if it is the same abbreviation scheme by the DEERS (DOD) then that is the greenlight to use it, right?

Air Force CAC cards use the abbreviation Capt. 
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Adam Brandao
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2007, 10:18:56 PM »

I will do my best to *unlearn* what over eight years in the Army taught me...but I find the CAP abbreviations idiotic.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2007, 03:53:30 AM »

As has been pointed out in older threads (or maybe even this one), the corresppondence abbreviations, as referenced above differ from the ones used in computer applications due to an economy of effort.

Many moons ago, memory and storage space was at a minimum, so the abbreviations were shortened up to support that. In today's world, memory and storage space are cheap, but the cost of converting everything isn't, and our dollars are best spent elsewhere.

Bottom line - there are differences. The situation probably won't change any time soon. Get over it. Salute and execute.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2007, 01:45:35 PM »

As the original post pointed out, CAP has official grade abbreviations; but based on a highly scientific poll on captalk.net, only 61% of members actually adhere to them.

see the poll at http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2583.0

Actual results:
48 voters (61%) said they use the correct abbreviation
13 voters (16%) said they use an incorrect abbreviation, even though they know it is incorrect
18 voters (23%) used their vote to poke fun at Maj Gen Pineda or to say that the topic is a waste of time

The succinct page of correct CAP grade abbreviations is at:
http://cap.mdickinson.com/abbreviations.htm
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2007, 02:03:59 AM »

I will do my best to *unlearn* what over eight years in the Army taught me...but I find the CAP abbreviations idiotic.

Actually, I think the CAP abbreviations (based on USAF) are historically what the Army (and Army Air Force) used at least through the Korean War, possibly longer.

Sp while they may be unfamiliar to you, awkward, and inconvenient, you really don't want to call them 'idiotic' because in so doing you're attacking Army heritage!
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Grumpy
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« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2007, 03:37:56 AM »

You know, with the war on terrorism and things like over 724 square miles of land having just burned in the San Diego area and a whole lot more going on, one would have more to worry about than if Captain was abbreviated as Capt or CPT.

I'm sure that depending on what branch of the service you were in you learned it one way and you still use it that way.  If you don't like the way it's abbreviated you can spell it out.  I'm sure the services all spell it the same way.
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shorning
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« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2007, 03:42:05 AM »

You know, with the war on terrorism and things like over 724 square miles of land having just burned in the San Diego area and a whole lot more going on, one would have more to worry about than if Captain was abbreviated as Capt or CPT.

You'd think the same could be said for uniforms, yet we have how many uniform threads?
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Grumpy
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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2007, 03:51:03 AM »

That's my point.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2007, 04:57:55 AM »

That's my point.

That attention to detail is unnecessary?

Its one thing when either new members, or members from other services, use an incorrect abbreviation, but why would anyone argue the point once the correct use has been pointed out?

Whether you can find places inside or outside CAP that use the wrong abbreviations,
once you know we're supposed to use "Capt., 2d Lt., 1st Lt", etc., just make the change and move on.

Obviously no one should be refused a sortie during Armageddon because they have their grade incorrectly indicated on their flightsuit nametag, but by the same token, when Armageddon is over, order it the right way.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2007, 08:20:22 AM »

You know, with the war on terrorism and things like over 724 square miles of land having just burned in the San Diego area and a whole lot more going on, one would have more to worry about than if Captain was abbreviated as Capt or CPT.

I'm sure that depending on what branch of the service you were in you learned it one way and you still use it that way.  If you don't like the way it's abbreviated you can spell it out.  I'm sure the services all spell it the same way.

Glad I don't live in California!  In fact, compared to what burns throughout the rest of country, that is a small area.  You and the news make it sound like the whole State was on fire.  Don't forget California is a desert and that they steal all of their water from other states. 

Perhaps you can start by stopping illegals from entering through your state.  I think I read that one of the California fires was actually started by an illegal Mexican boy anyway!

So anyway.......I will use Capt.  Thank you everyone for clearing that up for me!
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Grumpy
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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2007, 11:35:30 AM »

You know, with the war on terrorism and things like over 724 square miles of land having just burned in the San Diego area and a whole lot more going on, one would have more to worry about than if Captain was abbreviated as Capt or CPT.

I'm sure that depending on what branch of the service you were in you learned it one way and you still use it that way.  If you don't like the way it's abbreviated you can spell it out.  I'm sure the services all spell it the same way.

Glad I don't live in California!  In fact, compared to what burns throughout the rest of country, that is a small area.  You and the news make it sound like the whole State was on fire.  Don't forget California is a desert and that they steal all of their water from other states. 

Perhaps you can start by stopping illegals from entering through your state.  I think I read that one of the California fires was actually started by an illegal Mexican boy anyway!

So anyway.......I will use Capt.  Thank you everyone for clearing that up for me!

Maybe if he who leads this country would choose to enforce the borders instead of hand cuffing the Border Patrolmen. We could fix that problem.  Then there's New Orleans they knew those levies needed to be fixed for years but chose not to.  But it's all California's fault.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2007, 01:00:27 PM »

Blame it all on the current administration.  Last I looked, those border issues and those issues in New Orleans, are State, local, and CONGRESSIONAL issues.  Perhaps if they would appropriate money better.  Instead of putting earmarks in the budget for highways to nowhere, and pet projects they could fix some junk! 

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Grumpy
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« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2007, 02:03:33 PM »

Well, we could carry this on and on.  It would be more appropriate to use email.  But to bring it back on line, things must be getting better if all we have to worry about is how to abbreviate Captain.
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jb512
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« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2007, 02:48:22 PM »

Well, we could carry this on and on.  It would be more appropriate to use email.  But to bring it back on line, things must be getting better if all we have to worry about is how to abbreviate Captain.

Well suit up, grab a fire hose, and knock that out for us.  We'll put everything else on hold and when you get back we'll get those abbreviations under control.
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Grumpy
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« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2007, 05:28:10 PM »

 ;D
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teesquared
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« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2008, 01:11:17 AM »

I think you could make the case that someone who was a Sgt (E-4) prior to the elimination of the rank in the USAF would qualify for the CAP grade of Sgt... As long as those persons were not required to revert to SrA, and loose NCO status with the change in structure.

As far back as 1959 when I was in the AF they didn't have Sgt rank. E4 was A/1C, the next rank was Ssgt. A person would have had to be in the brown shoe corps (AAF) to be a Sgt.
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« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2008, 03:10:32 AM »

^ Strange how they did not have SGT.  You would think you would have to be a Sergent before you can be a Staff Sergent.
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« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2008, 03:24:41 AM »

I think you could make the case that someone who was a Sgt (E-4) prior to the elimination of the rank in the USAF would qualify for the CAP grade of Sgt... As long as those persons were not required to revert to SrA, and loose NCO status with the change in structure.

As far back as 1959 when I was in the AF they didn't have Sgt rank. E4 was A/1C, the next rank was Ssgt. A person would have had to be in the brown shoe corps (AAF) to be a Sgt.
The change to Sgt E-4 was made on 19Oct67 with change of title for E-4 from Airman 1st Class to Sgt, thereby restoring the NCO rank of the grade. This was done to exactly align the Air Force with other services. Completion of 5 level was required for promotion to E-4 (previously required for SSgt).
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« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2008, 03:29:57 AM »

What about on the CAC card.  Mine says CPT (as in Captain).  Does an AF CAC card also say CPT, as the CAC program is run through DEERS, I seriously doubt they would differentiate between the services.  So based on if it is the same abbreviation scheme by the DEERS (DOD) then that is the greenlight to use it, right?

Air Force CAC cards use the abbreviation Capt. 
DEERS stores rank appropriate to branch of service. Thus, an Army O-2 would be a 1LT, a Navy O-2 would be a LtJg and an Air Force O-2 would be a 1st Lt. Same for O-3 and other grades. DEERS doesn't care how things are abbreviated, but officers sometimes do.
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« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2008, 03:31:23 AM »

Today was the 60th anniversery of the establishment of the Department of Defense and the services still don't use 1 system of writing  grade between the Army, Navy, and Marines. I would think that with all the forms and publications they put out someone would have decided on one.
Sure they do... all paygrades are written in the same manner. E-1 through O-9
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« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2008, 11:19:05 AM »

Sure they do... all paygrades are written in the same manner. E-1 through O-9
I'm sure the Joint Chiefs would disagree.  :P
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« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2009, 01:58:56 AM »

That's why I put both "titles" in my signature block, as per my "user name" is my Army grade, not CAP, as I plan on getting promoted sooner than later....but my retired grade will always stay the same. 
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jb512
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« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2009, 06:56:27 PM »

That's why I put both "titles" in my signature block, as per my "user name" is my Army grade, not CAP, as I plan on getting promoted sooner than later....but my retired grade will always stay the same. 

(The AF and CAP use lower case letters... Capt)  ;)
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« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2009, 09:27:52 PM »

The all caps version CAPT is used to indicate a USN/USCG O-6...
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« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2009, 06:30:22 AM »

So which is correct? Some regs show that the rank abbreviations have periods in them, others do not. This is for both the CAP and the Air Force. For instance, Capt or Capt.
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JoeTomasone
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« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2009, 10:40:17 AM »

My understanding is that it has no periods, but National is so inconsistent themselves that looking to them for guidance is pointless.   Even my membership card says 1Lt. 

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Lt Oliv
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« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2009, 03:11:14 PM »

Interesting that now they seem to have eliminated the CAP NCO Grade of SGT. 

I can't imagine anybody wanting to hang on to their enlisted grade if they were below E-7....
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« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2009, 03:18:39 PM »

...

Its 80 and sunny outside, I have no idea why I even commented or anyone cares about something that effects less than 50 people out of 55,000.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 03:29:12 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Lt Oliv
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« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2009, 03:21:57 PM »

I'd encourage you to flip back to the first page of the thread.

You are also incorrect that you need to be an E-5 to come over as an NCO, because E-4 is an NCO/Petty Officer in the Navy and Marine Corps, and you are an NCO in the Army if you hold the rank of Corporal (which is also E-4).

My point was simply that while I have seen those who held paygrades E-7 through E-9 hold CAP NCO ranks, I have not seen (and would be surprised to see) someone who held a rank below E-7 want to hang onto it throughout CAP.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2009, 03:27:22 PM »

I have seen two first hand that were SSgt.  They are content with their choice.  Just because you do not understand the reasons why, that doesn't mean that they do not have good ones.
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« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2009, 03:31:03 PM »

I have seen two first hand that were SSgt.  They are content with their choice.  Just because you do not understand the reasons why, that doesn't mean that they do not have good ones.

Didn't say they didn't have good reasons.  Nor am I passing judgment on those who opt not to receive CAP Officer grades.  I am simply making the observation that I haven't seen it, and that it would surprise me (though not appall or otherwise disturb me) to see someone retain a grade like E-5 or an NCO E-4 grade.
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Nathan
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« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2009, 12:03:02 AM »

I've seen it. The guy was proud to be a sergeant. What more really needs to be explained?
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« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2009, 12:14:46 AM »

Interesting that now they seem to have eliminated the CAP NCO Grade of SGT. 

I can't imagine anybody wanting to hang on to their enlisted grade if they were below E-7....

Probably because the Air Force eliminated the Grade of Sergeant a number of years ago.
The first NCO Grade is Staff Sergeant.
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Lt Oliv
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« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2009, 06:11:37 PM »

I was actually just making an observation because this thread began (in 2006) mentioning the NCO grade of SGT, and apparently that was removed sometime a little bit more recently than when the AF did away with it. 

And I would really appreciate it if people would quit getting bent out of shape over my statement.  I am not "demanding" an explanation from someone who retained NCO rank, I am not judging people who do, I simply made the statement that I cannot imagine doing it (as a former Navy Petty Officer).  Period.  I don't care who you know who did it, how proud, decorated or honorable they were or what their favorite after work past time is.  I was simply making a statement while pointing out that CAP once had a rank, and now it doesn't. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2009, 09:05:14 PM »

I was actually just making an observation because this thread began (in 2006) mentioning the NCO grade of SGT, and apparently that was removed sometime a little bit more recently than when the AF did away with it. 

It was not a recent change.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
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Lt Oliv
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« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2009, 10:08:41 PM »

Again, I will refer you to the first page of this thread, where it was cited in 2006.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2009, 10:24:26 PM »

Again, I will refer you to the first page of this thread, where it was cited in 2006.

Yes, in Nov, 2006 (nearly three years ago), Pylon cited 35-5, however the specific issues you are referring to had not been changed since before I joined the program in 1999.

Not a recent change.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Lt Oliv
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2009, 01:09:48 PM »

It seems we're talking about two different things, and it is pretty inconsequential, anyway.  I'm ready to move on in life.
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MIKE
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« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2009, 03:36:38 PM »

So since the reg has changed since this was posted, then I guess we can unsticky and lock this one.
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Mike Johnston
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Announcements  |  Topic: CAP has official grade abbreviations
 


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