ES Exercise Simulated Victim Using FRS/MURS/Amateur Radio?

[EMT-83]

Amateur radio use is prohibited, but is considered fair game in an emergency. Do you extend the need for training into that arena as well?

[lordmonar]

RM says ignored the rule
Wazafuzz says break another rule so we can circumvent the first rule.

[Al Sayre]

From 100-1 Section 9-12 (a)  "One exception to the prohibition against ES use of FRS is when attempting to contact victims or the objects of a search.  If it is believed that the victims or search target may be carrying FRS, ES personnel MAY use FRS in an attempt to contact the victims directly.  FRS will not be used for communications between ES personnel or for any other manner of ES communications support."  Emphasis mine.

Seems like this would allow you to use it for a practice mission

[wuzafuzz]

RM says ignored the rule
Wazafuzz says break another rule so we can circumvent the first rule.

Whoa boy!  First, I pointed out potential opportunities in THE RULES and instances were those same RULES seem to be in conflict with other RULES.  Muddy at best. 

Second, most communicators are aware the FCC is pretty darn lenient about communications related to actual emergencies.  That's not carte blanche to do whatever a person wants, which is why I also suggested obtaining a "ruling" from NHQ and having any unnecessarily restrictive CAP rules changed. 

Third, 100-1 9-12 (a) defines exceptions to the remaining rules on FRS use, while the following section (b) defines the normally acceptable uses.  It seems reasonable to me that operating within those exceptions is not breaking or circumventing any rules.  Again, ask NHQ and let them clear it up.  That should prevent concerns about being sneaky, overly creative, or flat-out breaking of the rules.

Ultimately our job, in a search scenario, is to help people.  We can't do that if we "outlaw" reasonable actions in the course of the search.

Please be careful with the accusations.   

[wuzafuzz]

Amateur radio use is prohibited, but is considered fair game in an emergency. Do you extend the need for training into that arena as well?

Since you mention it, why not?  Are there any rules preventing a ham radio operator from coming along for a ride and using THEIR radios? 

If I recall correctly, our regulations say that person can't be a CAP member signed in to the mission, and may not talk to CAP people on the ham radio.  As long as we obtain necessary approvals for giving them al lift, I'm not aware of a reason it couldn't work.  We took local sheriff's SAR team members on flights during a SAREX I planned.  National allowed that. 

Drag out the quotes from 100-1 and duke it out!  Let's learn from this discussion.   

[a2capt]

Since you mention it, why not?  Are there any rules preventing a ham radio operator from coming along for a ride and using THEIR radios? 

We have discussed that very thing, and seen it in action. Having a representative from amateur radio, preferably a CAP member, but not signed into the mission in any capacity, as part of the Op Plan.  Particularly out in the west where we have terrain interference .. it makes things a bit more challenging and with practically every other agency using some form of amateur radio assistance and CAP being on the flip side, you basically have to have someone in the 'shack with you.

[lordmonar]

9-11. Intra-Squad Radios (ISR). ISR radios are authorized for all CAP units and activities, except that they must NOT be utilized in flight. Only radios specifically manufactured for the ISR service (currently available only from ICOM) are authorized and they will not be modified in any way, including the addition of external antennas or amplifiers. Because these radios operate only on federal frequencies, personal use of ISR radios is prohibited. For this reason, wings will develop policies regarding personal purchase of these radios that will ensure they are not resold or used outside of CAP. Wing DCs have the information needed to purchase these radios directly from ICOM America.

9-12. Family Radio Service (FRS). While use of ISR is preferred, the use of FRS radios is authorized IAW NTIA Regulations section 7.5.8. FRS radios are authorized for all CAP units and activities not directly supporting Emergency Services (actual missions and training). Emergency/disaster response, medical communications, and command and control communications are examples of emergency services functions which are prohibited from using FRS.
a. Limited Emergency Services FRS Use. One exception to the prohibition against ES use of FRS is when attempting to contact victims or the objects of a search. If it is believed that the victims or search target may be carrying FRS, ES personnel MAY use FRS in an attempt to contact the victims directly. FRS will not be used for communications between ES personnel or for any other manner of ES communications support.
b. Permissible FRS Use. Some examples of permissible FRS activities would include encampments, air shows, fund raisers, model rocketry, conferences, meetings, and non-direct mission supporting activities of a similar nature. They would also be ideal as a hands-on training tool for communications classes such as demonstrating how to call other stations, transmitting and receiving formal traffic and simulated ES radio traffic. Do not use FRS radios while airborne.
c. All FRS radios and operations must meet FCC Part 95 rules, including the necessity of using FCC-certified FRS equipment. FRS radios must not be modified in any way, and modified/illegal FRS radios are subject to confiscation by the FCC.

9-15. Limited Support for Amateur Radio Training. In CAP units making use of Amateur Radio as a unit training activity, corporate radio equipment which is no longer NTIA compliant, and therefore is no longer authorized for operational missions, may be used on amateur frequencies, with advance permission from National Headquarters requested via wing and region headquarters. Equipment used for this purpose shall have all CAP frequencies and/or frequency determining elements removed. At no time shall Amateur Radio frequencies be used in conduct of Civil Air Patrol business or missions, IAW para 11-2. Operation on amateur radio frequencies requires an FCC-issued amateur radio license.

11-2. Use of Amateur Radio Service by CAP. CAP members acting in any CAP capacity may not use amateur radio frequencies on behalf of CAP.
a. When the Civil Air Patrol conducts operational missions for the Air Force, it functions as an "instrumentality of the United States", IAW CAPR 20-1, para 4. Because CAP uses federal frequencies managed by the NTIA and assigned to the Air Force, CAP is defined as a federal frequency user, regardless of the customer." Under federal law and regulation, instrumentalities of the United States and federal frequency users are prohibited from encroaching on civilian frequencies regulated by the Federal Communications Commission, including amateur radio frequencies.
b. FCC rules prohibit conducting the business of any organization on amateur radio frequencies for pecuniary (financial) interest. Because CAP members receive Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) insurance and Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA) insurance, CAP members have pecuniary interest while signed in to Air Force tasked missions and have the status of a federal employee.
c. Where amateur radio third party traffic is needed to support a CAP mission, CAP communication managers may seek the support of local amateur radio clubs and organizations. CAP members who are licensed amateur radio operators and who are not acting in any CAP capacity (e.g. not signed into a mission) are not prohibited from exercising their amateur privileges and supporting affiliated amateur organizations using privately owned amateur equipment.
d. Amateur radio frequencies shall not be programmed into corporate radios, including those purchased with local assets, except as provided in para 9-15.

Here are the appropriate reg citations.

By my read.....we can't use ISRs in flight, we can't FRSs for training.

We can pass CAP messages on amateur frequencies and CAP member can do it.....but we skirt a legal/regs issue if we set up a training scenario where CAP members are not signing in just so we are meeting the letter of the law.

Asking non CAP HAM operators to "ride along" is opening up a big can of worms that I don't know if we really need to go there.

[blackrain]

I've wondered about FRS radio use as a way to contact persons in distress myself. Lot of people including whole families have them. Naturally the legalities have to make things complicated.

While we don't do much in the offshore rescue business the potential for having to do so does exist and the same capability with marine radios would be a good thing to have. The ability to find (by the GPS chip or DF) a specific cell phones in an emergency and at law enforcement behest could really be a lifesaver too.

Strictly hypothetical and the very large legal issues would have to be addressed by those way above my paygrade. I wouldn't think it would be to much of a technical issue though.

[davidsinn]

I've wondered about FRS radio use as a way to contact persons in distress myself. Lot of people including whole families have them. Naturally the legalities have to make things complicated.

While we don't do much in the offshore rescue business the potential for having to do so does exist and the same capability with marine radios would be a good thing to have. The ability to find (by the GPS chip or DF) a specific cell phones in an emergency and at law enforcement behest could really be a lifesaver too.

Strictly hypothetical and the very large legal issues would have to be addressed by those way above my paygrade. I wouldn't think it would be to much of a technical issue though.

We have a gentleman out west that can turn cell phone data around in a matter of hours. His is based of the towers so it's not as precise as GPS but if we had the GPS in the first place we wouldn't even be called.

[RRLE]

Absent an FCC or FAA rule, which no one has found, that absolutely prohibits FRS use in an airplane then we should train for this.

95.192 (FRS Rule 2) Authorized locations expressly allows the use of FRS in aircraft.

(a) Provided that you comply with these rules, you are authorized to operate an FRS unit:

(3) Aboard any vessel or aircraft registered in the United States, with the permission of the captain, that is within or over any area of the world where radio services are regulated by the FCC or upon or over international waters;

The CAP prohibition on FRS may deal with a now obsolete NTIA rule. NTIA not the FCC governs the use of frequencies by federal agencies. At one time the NTIA rules expressly forbid the use of FRS by government agencies. That is the prime reason DOD got the ISR service. The NTIA relented and now government agencies may use FRS. I researched this a while back for the USCG Aux. The Aux also banned FRS and only allowed IRS useage, which is almost not found in the Aux. I recommended the Aux change its policy vis-a-vie FRS but they never did.

[blackrain]

I've wondered about FRS radio use as a way to contact persons in distress myself. Lot of people including whole families have them. Naturally the legalities have to make things complicated.

While we don't do much in the offshore rescue business the potential for having to do so does exist and the same capability with marine radios would be a good thing to have. The ability to find (by the GPS chip or DF) a specific cell phones in an emergency and at law enforcement behest could really be a lifesaver too.

Strictly hypothetical and the very large legal issues would have to be addressed by those way above my paygrade. I wouldn't think it would be to much of a technical issue though.

We have a gentleman out west that can turn cell phone data around in a matter of hours. His is based of the towers so it's not as precise as GPS but if we had the GPS in the first place we wouldn't even be called.

I was thinking more in terms of areas too remote for reliable coverage by towers. I should have been more clear. Granted coverage is constantly improving as more towers are added. I've been in some areas in Arizona that felt like the dark side of the moon as far as cell coverage.

[wuzafuzz]

Asking non CAP HAM operators to "ride along" is opening up a big can of worms that I don't know if we really need to go there.

The other points have already been beat into the ground and are currently tunneling.  However, I am curious, what can of worms is opened by taking hams along for a ride?