ES Exercise Simulated Victim Using FRS/MURS/Amateur Radio?

[RADIOMAN015]

I'm looking at incorporating into an ES exercise in the future a simulated search victim using a Family Radio Service portable radio to call for simulated help during the mission.  Select CAP aircraft would be equipped with an FRS radio (along with an earphone) and would monitor for the call & respond to the victim.  I believe ES exercises should teach us how to think out of the box and utilize alternative radio systems in emergency conditions.

This is sort of the "poor man's" emergeny radio, versus buying A PLB.  However, the simulated search victim did tell his spouse that he would have an FRS Radio and would be on channel 1 (462.5625 mhz) no CTCSS/DCS code employed. 

My understanding is that with an aircraft flying at around 5K that the signals can easily be heard for over 30 miles.

Has anyone else did any experimentation on using a portable radio in an aircraft and having someone call from the ground using:
FRS ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service
MURS ?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Use_Radio_Service
VHF/ UHF Amateur Radio (146, 222, 440 mhz) (simplex frequencies)?
http://www.dxer.com/bandplan.html

Do you think that the outcome of some searches would have resulted in a quick discovery with the use of the "poor man's" radio system and prevented undue suffering & even death?

Could CAP be an advocate in first emphasizing the importance of buying or renting a PLB, but also as an alternative use the "poor man's" radio with appropriate disclaimers.

Could the James Kim tragedy in Oregon 2006 have had a different outcome with the use of a simple poor man's radio?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

RM 

[lordmonar]

We cannot use non-CAP frequencies for ES training.

However......you can give your simulated victim an ISR radio and have one in your aircraft.

The ISRs are in the same frequency range as the FRS and are of the same power range....so it would be a good simulation of searching for someone who has an FRS radio.

[JoeTomasone]

We cannot use non-CAP frequencies for ES training.

However......you can give your simulated victim an ISR radio and have one in your aircraft.

The ISRs are in the same frequency range as the FRS and are of the same power range....so it would be a good simulation of searching for someone who has an FRS radio.

Except that ISRs are not permitted in flight.

[wuzafuzz]

100-1 does allow limited Emergency Services FRS use.  Section 9-12 a states in part:  "If it is believed that the victims or search target may be carrying FRS, ES personnel MAY use FRS in an attempt to contact the victims directly."   It is reasonable to conclude training in that use would be permissible.   

That section goes on to say "FRS will not be used for communications between ES personnel or for any other manner of ES communications support."  If your practice target is not a CAP member you run no risk of running afoul of that provision.

Here's the catch:  can we only allow ground teams to use FRS?  Section 9-12 b discusses other permissible uses of FRS in CAP.  That section prohibits airborne use, but it's not clear to me whether that also applies to the limited ES uses described in the previous section.  There may be non-CAP regulations addressing that question.   

Presumably "use" means transmitting.  I can't imagine that merely listening would be an issue.  Still, if we can hear the subject of a search, it's a huge stretch to think we wouldn't answer a real call for help.  I would answer even if I were airborne, and let the CAPTalk lawyers debate it!

BTW, 100-1 Section 9-11 is very clear that ISR's may not be used in flight.  So ISR's would not be an acceptable stand-in for FRS if you operate from an aircraft.

[arajca]

Use of FRS to contact victims is acceptable. That change resulted from a mission a couple years ago when a CAP aircrew (in SW COWG) used one to make contact with a lost party of ~12.

Use of FRS to talk to ourselves during ES missions, is not. That's what ISRs are for.

[RADIOMAN015]

Use of FRS to contact victims is acceptable. That change resulted from a mission a couple years ago when a CAP aircrew (in SW COWG) used one to make contact with a lost party of ~12.

Use of FRS to talk to ourselves during ES missions, is not. That's what ISRs are for.

IF a CAP member is the simulated victim it stands to reason that one would use the radio system that the potential real victim would use, so that the practice exercise is as real as possible and would give experience to air crews in what they could expect from FRS radio communications range to include potential inteference due to significant use by others.
RM

   

[lordmonar]

We cannot use non-CAP frequencies for ES training.

However......you can give your simulated victim an ISR radio and have one in your aircraft.

The ISRs are in the same frequency range as the FRS and are of the same power range....so it would be a good simulation of searching for someone who has an FRS radio.

Except that ISRs are not permitted in flight.

Neither are FRS....so then the exercise is moot.

[davidsinn]

We cannot use non-CAP frequencies for ES training.

However......you can give your simulated victim an ISR radio and have one in your aircraft.

The ISRs are in the same frequency range as the FRS and are of the same power range....so it would be a good simulation of searching for someone who has an FRS radio.

Except that ISRs are not permitted in flight.

Neither are FRS....so then the exercise is moot.

Can the DF gear in the aircraft be tuned to FRS freqs? If so you could still have a ground based radio simulate someone in distress and the airplane can at least listen and possibly DF.

[MSgt Van]

Have them transmit on 121.75 from a hand held aviation radio. DF'r will hear that.
I guess that wouldn't jive with your requirement unless your hikers carry aviation gear.

[CFI_Ed]

Can the DF gear in the aircraft be tuned to FRS freqs?

Nope.

[davidsinn]

Can the DF gear in the aircraft be tuned to FRS freqs?

Nope.

That sucks. Just have to use a hand held scanner and attempt to body block I guess.

[Spaceman3750]

Can the DF gear in the aircraft be tuned to FRS freqs?

Nope.

That sucks. Just have to use a hand held scanner and attempt to body block I guess.

I recall a few years ago someone told me the new Little L-Per (cheeseblock) can DF FRS transmissions (only good for ground DF but it's better than nothing). That was a long time ago however so my recollection may be off.

On another note I find it very unfortunate that our regulations are written in ways which prevent us from training for real-life scenarios.

[davidsinn]

Can the DF gear in the aircraft be tuned to FRS freqs?

Nope.

That sucks. Just have to use a hand held scanner and attempt to body block I guess.

I recall a few years ago someone told me the new Little L-Per (cheeseblock) can DF FRS transmissions (only good for ground DF but it's better than nothing). That was a long time ago however so my recollection may be off.

On another note I find it very unfortunate that our regulations are written in ways which prevent us from training for real-life scenarios.

Blame the FCC and FAA.

[RADIOMAN015]

We cannot use non-CAP frequencies for ES training.

The ISRs are in the same frequency range as the FRS and are of the same power range....so it would be a good simulation of searching for someone who has an FRS radio.

Except that ISRs are not permitted in flight.

Neither are FRS....so then the exercise is moot.

Family Radio Service is license by rule by the FCC.  There's no regulation that prevents the use of the FRS radios in flying aircraft.

I don't recall seeing in CAP regulation that states that an FRS radio can't be used in a CAP aircraft.  (BTW This already has been tested by a CAP member in a private aircraft with no affect on airband radio comms).  The individual made the mistake while talking to the ground station by stating he was airborne & than all heck broke loose because anyone hearing him on an FRS radio tried to call him.

I think it is a resonable exercise that would have minimum transmission from the aircraft.  In fact I would run the exercise with a good idea of geographically where the "injuried" hunter had stated he/she would be in to a relative.  When the aircraft was close to the area the simulated injuried hunter hearing the aircraft would call out and the aircraft would answer.  After the discovery and team response & treatment.  Ground personnel would then just have some continous voice transmissions as the aircraft flew away to get a good idea as to furtherst range of receipt.

Everyone in ES (ground or air) needs to learn how to "think out of the box" and experimenting with relatively inexpensive communications devices is reasonable and could be very effective.   Now personally I would also like to run an exercise with an FRS radio actually being dropped from an aircraft -- but that would really be pushing the envelope beyond CAP's acceptable risk level.     
RM   

[MSgt Van]

I think the FAA would be the governing reg, not a CAPR. I'm sure they have an approved equipment list, and unless it's certified, no go in the airplane...

[lordmonar]

Anyone know why IRSs are specifically forbidden for in flight use?

The FAA rule is pretty lenient and open for interpretation.

§ 91.21   Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:

(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or

(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Portable voice recorders;

(2) Hearing aids;

(3) Heart pacemakers;

(4) Electric shavers; or

(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

Emphasis mine.

[wuzafuzz]

I really don't see this as a choice to make, we should do it.  It's an emergency.  After all, who wants to tell the family of a missing hiker that we won't even try to raise their loved one on an FRS radio?  Just imagine the heyday the news media would have with that.  Game over man. 

Of course this assumes we have a clue which channel the missing hiker might be using.  Also remember that FRS radios have less range than our VHF handi-talkies, especially in and around foliage.  An FRS equipped ground team is far less likely to make contact with our hiker than an aircrew. 

Absent an FCC or FAA rule, which no one has found, that absolutely prohibits FRS use in an airplane then we should train for this.  If anyone finds a CAP rule prohibiting this, it should be changed YESTERDAY.

[lordmonar]

But 100-1 absolutely forbids us to use the IRS in flight and absolutely forbids us from using FRS in ES training.

We can use FRS during a real search....but we have no way to train for the eventuality.   

Rock.....Hard Place.  Hard Place....meet rock. 

[RADIOMAN015]

But 100-1 absolutely forbids us to use the IRS in flight and absolutely forbids us from using FRS in ES training.

We can use FRS during a real search....but we have no way to train for the eventuality.   

Rock.....Hard Place.  Hard Place....meet rock. 

I don't think anyone in CAP is going to loose sleep over an exercise using the FRS radio specifically as follows:  The CAP ground team is talking to the aircraft using a CAP channel e.g. AIR 1 and the aircraft is guiding the team to the simulated victim.  Another aircrew member is talking to the simulated victim on an FRS radio.  When the ground team gets close enough they could also talk with the simulated victim using FRS radio.  The FRS radio is not used by the teams for intra team communications.

BTW generally FRS channel 1 (462.5625 mhz) without any tone settings is considered the unofficial calling channel.  It will also likely have the most user on it because when you put the batteries into the portable it defaults to this channel with most equipment.    Any of the 14 channels could be picked.   Many of the FRS radios have channel scan mode and also some have the capability to find the tone being used also.    BTW some FRS radios have scramble capability (voice inversion).

IF anyone conducts an FRS radio exercise please post a summary of your results.         
RM

[wuzafuzz]

From 100-1 Section 9-12 (a)  "One exception to the prohibition against ES use of FRS is when attempting to contact victims or the objects of a search.  If it is believed that the victims or search target may be carrying FRS, ES personnel MAY use FRS in an attempt to contact the victims directly.  FRS will not be used for communications between ES personnel or for any other manner of ES communications support."  Emphasis mine.

Have a non-CAP member play the victim.  As long as CAP ES folks aren't talking to each other, you're good.  Also note that 9-12 (a) does not exclude a practice search.  It just says a search.

Section 9-12 (b) allows simulated ES messages over FRS, but suggests that occurs in a communications class.  It also says FRS should not be used while airborne. 

Does subsection (b) trump subsection (a)? Or vice versa? Or does each stand alone?  It seems odd to prohibit training for permitted search activities.  A memo from NHQ clarifying these points would be helpful, followed by an appropriate change to 100-1.