CAP officers who do not deserve their rank - is it a big problem?

[ßτε]

I appears you're making an assumption that people are requiring the later levels before the promotion. No one is advocating that.

But there are people who are advocating this. You aren't and Patrick isn't but others are.


I personally do not agree with your proposal. It has the effect of implying that duty performance method of promotion is superior to any others. I don't think this is a good message to send. I think it is a better message to say that we value members for what they do for the organization and the special skills that they bring, whether it be mission related skills, professional skills and education, experience in the military, or professional development within our own organization.

[lordmonar]

I think anyone with an Eagle or star should have to achieve level V within 1 year to keep the title "Colonel", or "General".

I love seeing Wing Commanders with level 2, and in for 3 years go from Lt to Colonel.  Blows my mind!!!!

Well actually I would like to see Level V as a requirment to be even considered for Wing/vice Wing Command.

[C/Martin]

I'm not a senior member, but from my observation of the senior member program from a cadet's point of view. Rank does not matter as much as position. Someone who does not deserve Squadron Commander would seem like a bigger issue than if someone does not deserve Captain. At least at my squadron rank does not effect who holds which position.

[Eclipse]

I'm not a senior member, but from my observation of the senior member program from a cadet's point of view. Rank does not matter as much as position. Someone who does not deserve Squadron Commander would seem like a bigger issue than if someone does not deserve Captain. At least at my squadron rank does not effect who holds which position.

The senior program is not that much different in this respect from the cadets.  You are correct in that rank grade does not confer any authority in and of itself, but just as with cadets, if it didn't matter, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

The most amusing conversations I have are those that have someone telling me how little CAP grade means, and then arguing when they
don't get it.   

[lordmonar]

CAP grade does not mean anything in a legal or authority context.  A CAP Lt Gen has no more power then a CAP FO.

Position in CAP is what drives authority and power.

But CAP grade does mean something to the people who earn it or desire to earn it.

On should not forget that there is a distinct difference between the psychological power of rank and the legal power of rank.

[Eclipse]

On should not forget that there is a distinct difference between the psychological power of rank and the legal power of rank.

Which brings us back to "DOH!" and the whole problem with grade in CAP - SMWOG's saluting Colonels who are under their command.
I'm sure there are a few, but I don't personally know of any other organizations where the peacocks with the most feathers aren't also
running the roost.

[flyboy53]

I think anyone with an Eagle or star should have to achieve level V within 1 year to keep the title "Colonel", or "General".

I love seeing Wing Commanders with level 2, and in for 3 years go from Lt to Colonel.  Blows my mind!!!!

How about no promotion without it, especially if they've only completed Level 2.

[Ned]

I'm sure there are a few, but I don't personally know of any other organizations where the peacocks with the most feathers aren't also
running the roost.

I think I've mentioned before that as an Army captain, I commanded an HHD (Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment) that had the O-5 battalion CO, and two majors assigned to it.

I was the unit commander with Article 15 authority, but there was never any question that the field grades would have to salute me or anything.

So, it does happen with some regularity in the RM.

Just saying.

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, but not as a rule or an expectation.  Flying units tend to have those issues as well, but they are few and far between.

[lordmonar]

The problem here is that everyone is still equating CAP rank with military rank.

Don't do it.

Don't think about.

It is not the issue.

CAP grade is "normally" simply a designation of your level of PD completion, time in the organisation and maybe the subjective ability to serve at a particular level within the organisation.

It confers no authority.  It confers additional pay and benefits.  We use the military model of customs and courtesies but lets be honest.....90% of SM on SM C&C is just not done!

We use the military model as just that a model.  But that is all it is.  Position is the only source of authority in CAP.  End of story.

CAP is not the only organisation where the "highest ranking" is not always the guy in charge.

The BSA for example...the Senior Patrol Leader is the man....be he a 1st Class or an Eagle Scout.
There are lots of fraternal orders where the Grand Master Poobahs are not the guys actually running the local lodges.

That is the way it is going to stay until/unless we are willing to do a major change of our grade system.  Which I have suggested but no one seems to like. 

[AlphaSigOU]

The problem here is that everyone is still equating CAP rank with military rank.... CAP is not the only organisation where the "highest ranking" is not always the guy in charge.

Exactimundo... Another example: in most Masonic lodges 'Worshipful Masters serve for a year, Secretaries really run the lodge.' 

Or simply stated, CAP grade does not equate to the granting of 'dinging power'. (Except within our own ranks, of course.)

[Hawk200]

I personally do not agree with your proposal. It has the effect of implying that duty performance method of promotion is superior to any others. I don't think this is a good message to send. I think it is a better message to say that we value members for what they do for the organization and the special skills that they bring, whether it be mission related skills, professional skills and education, experience in the military, or professional development within our own organization.

I don't think it's a good message to send that a person has no responsibilities in our organization because they got a skill set somewhere else. We already saw an example of this in this thread. You can have people that walk in the door, demand a rank that they feel entitled to, and make no real contribution.

I've seen both examples. Many times in the same unit, at the same time.

One guy comes in gung ho to be a contributing member, takes the time, progresses in PD, wants to learn, and feels that he can serve better by learning as much as he can and applying it.  He takes ownership in the process, contributes to the unit, and wears a uniform with a professional pride.

Another comes in, takes his Level 1 after three months and a muleload of armtwisting; shows up when he wants to fly the plane; has said he'll only go to a SAREX if he gets to fly the plane there, back, and for sorties during it. There are many people in the unit that don't even know who he is, because he's never around. He's probably also the one that gets mad when he can't get a flight release because the FRO has never heard of him either, and the guy hasn't gotten around to getting a form 5 because there's "Nothing really in it for him".

Now, out of the two, which do you think deserves a promotion? I'll go with first. Just because a person is potentially eligible for something does not mean that they have a right to it.

Additionaly, CAP rank is usually an indicator of a person's professional experience. I don't think it's too much to ask that a Captain or Major know a little about Civil Air Patrol. Simple things like when CAP was founded; what constitutes a squadron, group or wing; what all those stars, bars, birds and leaves are (I have met a body or two with rank on that didn't know); or what the three missions of Civil Air Patrol are.

To be effective in an organization, one must be familiar with it. A person that's immediately at the "top" (or at least upper middle) should be.

Now, if you want to run your unit with as many people as you can get, and give them a rank that you feel they're entitled to, that's your thing. However, a large unit, with a lot of high number of higher ranking members, isn't a measurement of a succesful unit.

[ßτε]

I am in no way saying that the second member you describe should be promoted. It is clear to me that such an individual has not met all the requirements for even a mission related skills promotion. He is not contributing to the mission of CAP and not performing those duties in an exemplary manner. If I were the commander that member would not be promoted.

Also, all those bits of CAP knowledge you mention are a part of Level I. Since Level I is required for (virtually) all promotions, everyone other than a SMWOG should know these. If someone does not, you need to make sure Level I is being done correctly.

I guess the example I come up with is a CFI, becomes a MP, cadet orientation pilot, instructor pilot, and check pilot. This individual flies cadets at least once a month, participates in every sarex and when needed for a mission, teaches other pilots how to transition to a glass cockpit 182, and gives Form 5 checkrides at least once a month. Does this member deserve a promotion to Capt? He has more than met the minimum requirements. Under current regulations, this member should be promoted to Capt without regard to any completion to Level II training. Under your proposal, the member would then have 1 year to then complete Level II, or else be demoted. That is saying something like "We only have one real method of promotion which involves our professional development levels. But we do have a way to temporarily promote you until you meet the real requirements. But you're not really a Capt until you complete Level II." I just don't think this is right. We should value our captains regardless of the promotion method used to qualify them for promotion.

(In an earlier post, the Certificate of Proficiency and Level II were listed as two different things. The Certificate of Proficiency was what NHQ gave for completion of Level II. They weren't really two different levels. Of course now the COP has been replaced by the Benjamin O. Davis Leaderhip Award.) 

[Hawk200]

Under your proposal, the member would then have 1 year to then complete Level II, or else be demoted. That is saying something like "We only have one real method of promotion which involves our professional development levels. But we do have a way to temporarily promote you until you meet the real requirements. But you're not really a Capt until you complete Level II." I just don't think this is right. We should value our captains regardless of the promotion method used to qualify them for promotion.

Well, that's your call. But you have a person that should be able to function in the capacity of a captain.  From your view your advanced promotee won't have to obtain a specialty track, nor necessarily be familiar with CAP in general. There are things that get covered in SLS and CLC that people Captain and above should be familiar with. It's a problem when they're not. Does it sound like strings are attached? Yep, it sure does.

You're looking at it as if I'm saying that only the Levels are important. I, and probably a few others, are looking at as "Hey, we're gonna give you this rank early, but there are still things you need to learn, and this is what you should accomplish for your own benefit and to the benefit of this organization." The needs of the organization are important, and should not be supplanted just because a person is eligible for advanced rank.

Another thing to consider is that a Captain that never completes Level II cannot complete Level III. It's a requirement to complete previous levels to get the next one. You now have a permanent Captain if they don't fulfill the requirements.

From 35-5, dated 16 Mar 2010, para 4-2.c.:  (It should be noted, however, that members promoted under these provisions will not be eligible for promotion above the grade of captain until they have achieved the appropriate skill level.)

To avoid any whining about it, just make everyone do it. In that manner, everyone has the same skill set at the grade they're wearing. Handing people rank with no conditions is gonna result in swelled heads. Without any requirements, it's the same problem as companies that hire people, treat them like they're some kind of answer to all the problems, and end up with someone with too big an ego to fit the room (which is usually why such people demand a larger office when they've only been working for the company for a couple of months).

[DBlair]

I love seeing Wing Commanders with level 2, and in for 3 years go from Lt to Colonel.  Blows my mind!!!!

Is that actually possible?

[lordmonar]

I love seeing Wing Commanders with level 2, and in for 3 years go from Lt to Colonel.  Blows my mind!!!!

Is that actually possible?

Technically it is possible to go from SMWOG and Level straight to the Wing CC.